Solving Polaroid PN 55 Secret

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I gave 20 years to zildjian to understand it.
Now I am faster.
I learned sem costs 200 dollars in Istanbul.
I and researchers would not have any experience to do it to a film.
You will tell me , I will tell them.
What kind of SEM we have to use ? There are two types.
Do we need to coat the sample ?
How we will see the layers ? Do we have to cut the polaroid and look from the side or can we look from the top of the surface and see the layers ?
Do we need darkness ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

You must dissolve the emulsion from the support by some means that does not destroy the emulsion and then you must make carbon replicas of the grains. The SEM photographs the carbon replicas. EDS done on the grains themselves will give elemental distribution. XRD will give more data on elemental composition depending on the angle of "view". These can all be done from 1 sample with a few sheets of film. I suggest Takamine to dissolve the gelatin, but beware that Takamine is very toxic and harmful to humans.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Is there a paper or book on seperation of emulsion and making carbon replicas of the grains ?
Do you want to tell me or do you have a friend at Kodak who can tell me ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

No, there is no text book and no, no one at Kodak would tell you, however this is not an unknown methodology to chemists. The problem is, having the information you intend to get, who will then make the emulsion for you and who will make the coatings and assemble the materials to produce the picture? This is an even bigger problem.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I am not interested in making emulsion , I am interested in gathering information. I will learn many things from this research and this is better than sex for me

 

[Ray Rogers]

I am not interested in making emulsion , I am interested in gathering information. I will learn many things from this research and this is better than sex for me

So, how much are you willing to pay for a good time?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I will pay all the analysis expenses . SEM cost 200 here and I think china can do cheaper better. Making carbon replicas is a thing I never heard.
Ray , Can you say something for that ? May be biologists use these kind of copies ???
Anyone who knows something about it ?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Hmmm I understood now. Samples would be needed to coated . Carbon coated in vacuum and than recorded !
Is it correct ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

You would take existing film packs and analyze them.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Ron , Istanbul University writes that carbon coating is used with x ray backscatter SEM research.
What will researcher look to at this research with SEM ? Layers , their thicknesses ?
Elektron Microprobe Analysis ? Do you want this ?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I am sorry , its 6 AM

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

GRAINS

 

[Photo Engineer]

Mustafa, I have many projects. I really don't want to do this one and add to my burden. So sorry, but this is just too much for me to take on right now. I can give suggestions here, but that is about it.

I have posted an SEM elsewere on this forum for one of my emulsions. It is a carbon replica SEM. It cost a LOT! I don't intend go further with this. I need to finish the book, the DVD and develop about 2 more or 3 more emulsions and then wind things up.

Sorry.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

ok ron , sometimes have a look to this thread. I hope there are others who wish to help.
I found this below :
I think carbon copy is different from coating the sample with carbon.
Well I will learn from China the cost.

The resulting emulsion contained relatively polydisperse cubic grains with rounded corners. Out of 672 grains observed on a scanning electron microscope (SEM) at a magnification of 20,000 X, 21 grains (3%) showed a slight rectangular shape with a ratio of adjacent edge lengths of less than 1.3 and typically 1.1. SEM observations of grains tilted so that the thickness could be observed showed that the few grains present that appeared rectangular exhibited aspect ratios of less than 2. Emulsion B

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Making carbon replicas is a thing I never heard.

Find a good book on SEM and read up.

Actually, this thread reminds me of when I worked in a private analytical chemistry lab 20 years ago.

Every time the phone rang at 12:15, it was some crackpot that was calling to have us figure out how to make some everyday item, which the crackpot could buy for usually less than $20, but the price had gone up $1 or so recently, and they wanted to make it themselves.

Depending on the kind of item they wanted, I would explain that it would take several expensive tests to get just an idea of what the product they wanted to formulate was made from, and that would end up costing from $500 to $1000. And that was just to get us close to the answer. No guarantee that we would have a complete formulation at that point and that it could cost much more than that to get the more complete answer.

Invariably, they would be shocked that it could even cost that much. They always thought we just poured the sample into some machine, pushed a button, and then we had the answer. I explained to them that they probably had been watching too much Star Trek - Next Generation and that there were actually no machines that could do analyses like that.

So I'd ask them if they wanted to come one in and proceed with the testing and they would always say they would look around and call back. I would then offer the name of one of our competitors and suggest they try checking with them, thinking that the other lab would foolishly take the job and loose money on it because they would underbid the job.

I actually had 3 people that took the offer up, and they were all businesses that needed to replace a product that was no longer being offered by their suppliers. One was a fire-retardant coating that was a mixture of superphosphate fertilizer and latex paint, another was a RV septic tank digesting solution, and the third was a water ski binder lube to get your feet into the bindings more easily. I did the work (which was much, much simpler than trying to figure out who made a photographic emulsion or how it was made) and all 3 times, brought the job in the range we had projected, and they were all happy that we could point them the direction to making a replacement product.

Anyway, I just thought you all might enjoy my anecdotal story.

 

[Ray Rogers]

Find a good book on SEM and read up.

Actually, this thread reminds me of when I worked in a private analytical chemistry lab 20 years ago.

Kirk,

For some reason, your posts make you look much younger than that!

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I hope no one thinks that I'm implying that Mustafa is a crackpot. It's just his enthusiam and unfamiliarity with the testing tools needed here reminded me of the story I related.

Mustafa - I truly appreciate your desired to learn and tackle difficult subjects, and how you think up aspects that most people never would think about.

Kirk

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Kirk,

For some reason, your posts make you look much younger than that!

Thanks, Ray. I'll take that as a compliment. And most people usually underestimate my age (45). I'm starting to turn a bit grey, so I'm sure those numbers will be coming up shortly...

 

[AgX]

More as a historical remark:
In the fourties Land and his research team found that even the absence of nucleating agents could deliver a diffusion reversal image. In case the concentration of complexated silver was high enough the silver precipitated on its own in the receiving layer. Obviously this concentration issue hampers a use of such a system for continuous tone work. Or am I wrong?

Carey Lea Silver
I’m slow on the intake again:
Why is everybody preoccupied with CLS as nucleating agent?
In literature a lot of hints concerning heavy metals and other non-organic compounds are to be found. (Polaroid overcame the principal problem of controlling growth on their sulfide nuclei by “retarding” them in colloidal silica.)
In another thread the issue of centrifugating is discuused. I assume this would be true of many nucleating systems.
But is CLS really the most practicable way for a home lab?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks for reminding me. Colloidal Silver Sulfide is another method used by Land to get nucleation on the reciever sheet, and colloid free sheets were used in some cases, but there was a nucleating agent of some sort IIRC. This goes way back for me, and our idea at EK was to do color mainly and to avoid any method used by Land. This was a concerted effort to avoid Land's patents.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

Thanks, Ray. I'll take that as a compliment.
...

Good, it was meant to be!

 

[PHOTOTONE]

I just don't see what "good" there is in trying to figure out a product that has no chance of being made again, due to start-up costs, and lack of manufacturers with suitable equipment and very small market. If one were really interested in this product (Polaroid P/N type 55), the logical successor would be Fuji, as they already have the technology, and currently make b/w and color peel-apart instant films. The concept of a usable negative (after clearing) as opposed to a throw-away negative should not be too hard to engineer, but why attempt to go back to the beginning?

I'm guessing that the original Polaroid formulas would be available to purchase for the right price, as Petters group (owners of Polaroid name) are in business to make money, and as it stands, they are completely "out" of the instant film business, and yet still own the formulas.

It's nice that Mustafa has the free time and money to indulge his interests with zero chance of any payback.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

PE , I recieved below e mail.
What do you say ?

I would like to thank you for consulting us. Intertek in Chalon is former Kodak Research Laboratory and the analysis of photographic emulsion is usual for us. Based upon your email, we have the pleasure to send you our best proposal for the work requested.

- Micrographs by Scaning Electron Microscopy + EDS : 460,00€ VAT excluded per sample

- X ray diffracion : 280,00€ VAT excluded per sample

These two analysis request around 3g (0,5g for SEM and 2,5g for DRX) of emulsion so we need a lot of films

For Vapor phase Chromagraphy analysis, we need more information. Could you tell us what you are looking for ?

If you need more information, don't hesitate to contact us

 

[Ray Rogers]

460,00€
280,00€

That's 460 € & 280 € ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Mustafa;

The prices sound reasonable.

Chalon is the site of the former Kodak plant, so these must be former Kodak people doing this.

Now, having said that, lets assume you get these analyses. How are you going to use them? What are you going to do with them? They still are only sign posts on a long trip which is just starting and it includes learning how to make the emulsion.

PE