Solving Polaroid PN 55 Secret

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2008

I have found two methods in the literature I have on making black and yellow silver colloids. One uses dextrin and the other uses lysalbinic acid, either one acting on silver hydroxide to make silver metal colloid in gelatin. All of these are done in mild alkali. I have to do some figuring to get out a meaningful formula in today's terms, so if anyone is interested, just let me know and I'll put it into the queue.

Dextrin is basically a hydrolysed starch, done by a very mild alkali. Maltodextrin is an example. Lysalbinic acid is the result of mild gentle hydrolysis of egg albumen. I can find the dextrins, but lysalbinic acid is not common today.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 26, 2008

Wow. Homebrew diffusion transfer. I'm impressed!

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2008

The relatively poor print sharpness of 20-25 line pairs/mm is caused by “sideways image spread” during diffusion (a thin layer of developer separates the negative and print, which are not in perfect contact). The spectral sensitivity may reflect the fact that Polaroid Type 55 was introduced in 1961 and has probably remained exactly the same ever since. Polaroid’s first panchromatic film came out in 1955, so their knowledge of dye sensitization in 1961 may not have been cutting edge. The relatively low negative Dmax may reflect the migration of silver to the print.

IMO, Type 55 is a case where the observed results and benefits of its processing depart from seemingly outdated technical specifications. I've taken some of my best photos with Type 55, including 1:1 macro still lifes with available window light to broad landscapes. For a film that really has no variation in processing, it always works, and in many cases, works better than more "modern" emulsions and processing. I cannot describe in technical terms why that is so. All I know is that it worked extremely well under any conditions I could come up with. Sorry for the rant.

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2008

Yes, it is possible with a sheet that contains colloidal silver and a goo that does the right thing. However, I forgot to add that you need a spreader for the surface of the print to tone it and get the proper tone and image stability.

Doing it in the light is a pain too. Without the proper backing on the paper and film, you have to do it in the darkroom. We used to do it that way with rollers and rails to get the gap and pull speed constant.

PE

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2008

Alex;

It works very well, but there is image spread unfortunately. The saving grace is that the spread from the film to the paper is near what the eye can detect at normal viewing distance.

PE

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Alex;

It works very well, but there is image spread unfortunately. The saving grace is that the spread from the film to the paper is near what the eye can detect at normal viewing distance.

PE

Must be. I sure can't see any anomalies.

Kirk Keyes · Aug 27, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
I have found two methods in the literature I have on making black and yellow silver colloids.

Would you be kind enough to start a new thread where you give more detail on the methods you found. It may be useful. I think I noticed some patents (for t-grains?) where they were adding Carey Lea silver during the emulsification steps at a certain point in the process.

dwross · Aug 27, 2008

Kirk,

I'll start the new thread with a link to a very interesting background article. I have no idea how to make colloidal silver, but the whole historical aspect of it is fascinating.

Denise

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

A myth put to rest

Well, today was one of our irregular photo engineers lunches at George Eastman House. One of the topics was the popular myth that Land used a Kodak emulsion formula (variously Pan X or Plus X depending on source).

Land, in a note somewhere, says that he originally used Kodak sheet film (Pan X) to demonstrate the feasibility of instant B&W imaging. Then he went on to develop his OWN emulsions for his product lineup.

In no way is any Land formula for a B&W product a Kodak emulsion formula. This comes from a very authoritative source.

PE

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
In no way is any Land formula for a B&W product a Kodak emulsion formula. This comes from a very authoritative source.

PE

???
Not what I heard.

PE wrote:
Kodak developed a series of products for him including some B&W and color products.
I do not know which ones.

Maybe it is a question of semantics.
Are you saying you now think Kodak never produced emulsions for Polaroid?

I recall reading that Kodak did under contract.

I could be wrong, but probably not my source.

I am not really interested in the process, other methods being superior in my opinion,
but I will check to see if my memory fails me.

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

I have this from authoritative sources that Kodak did not develop any emulsions for Dr. Land. We did R&D for Polaroid, but in all cases either the emulsions were from Polaroid, or we did R&D with our emulsions and using their proposed variations on format and formula and gave them the generic "answers" without Kodak knowing or producing the emulsion formulas.

In no case did Land use a Kodak formula nor did he have one according to excellent sources.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 28, 2008

Ron , Do Kodak analyze the PN 55 film , if you want ?
You can save everyone from guessing .
If it would be for reasonable fee , I can order a report from someone who can do it and Ron referenced !
May be Ron collect the donations and our group members would make a mark.

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

The emulsion is similar to Panatomic X, and that is all I know. This only comes from a Kodak analysis of a Polaroid product, and the fact is that it is the way it is, is because Land used standard Panatomic X for his first demonstration.

For analysis, you need Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion, along with X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present. Even so, such work would miss Iridium, Osmium, Rhodium and probably Mercury, Cadmium?, and Sulfur + Gold levels. It would also miss any organic stabilzers and sensitizing dyes unless extremely precise Vapor Phase Chromatography or suchlike were done. An analysis could take several thousand dollars and weeks of my time analyzing the data.

Even with that, you would then have to search Polaroid patents to pick package items from the patents such as the colloid type, and the coating amounts of the chemistry. After that, who will make the pods? Who will make the assembled package? Well, actually, who will make the emulsion and coating?

You could use conventional film as Land did and formulate a single use goo. Then you could process in the dark using a paper you coated with a Carey Lea silver colloid.

PE

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Ray Rogers said:
???
I will check to see if my memory fails me.

It seems I was correct.

Jour. Opt. Soc. Amer., 37, Feb. 1947

page 61

Land appears to have written:

"The writer also wishes to thank the Eastman Kodak Company for its cooperation in supplying a variety of special emulsions for this investigation."

The help Kodak provided was significant and was not limited to a single process nor only to experimental material.

From Type 40 and Type 47 on to the Polacolor negative, Kodak was involved.

The relationship was not always peaceful, but Land and Damschroder (director of the Emulsion Research Division at Kodak) and Yutzy (another Kodak emulsion researcher) were on a first name basis and did a certain amount of after-work socializing.

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

Yes Ray, Land does state that. It does not say that they gave him the formulas. He tried PanX and said "can you do this to it" and they did, but did not sell or give him the formula. In other cases, he gave them emulsions and asked them to treat them with different chemicals and they did and supplied him with the emulsion or the coating.

They did NOT, according to Kodak records, give Land a formula to make. I knew Rudy Damschroder quite well, as I worked directly for him for 1 year. He wouldn't even give some Kodak people formulas! He had established the "silver curtain" from which formulas did not issue! It was not until about 1980 that Kodak began to relax this internally and not until about 1990 that Kodak began to share some formulas with China. This latter, ceased recently.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 28, 2008

Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion
X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present
Vapor Phase Chromatography
Ron , if it takes thousands in USA , it takes hundreds at China !
Can you learn who can do these research at China or is there anyone who knows China ?

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 28, 2008

I've posted my take on the Type 55/Pan-X connection here--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Out of curiosity, have you asked Grant Haist if he's thought any more about this since writing The Monobath Manual?

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
I have this from authoritative sources that Kodak did not develop any emulsions for Dr. Land. We did R&D for Polaroid, but in all cases either the emulsions were from Polaroid, or we did R&D with our emulsions and using their proposed variations on format and formula and gave them the generic "answers" without Kodak knowing or producing the emulsion formulas.

In no case did Land use a Kodak formula nor did he have one according to excellent sources.

PE

Some of the difference in our POVs here may be semantics.
Kodak may have supplied the material itself not the formulas.

I should point out I concur with many of Ron's points above.
I imagine agreements came and went and Polaroid did its best to be self-sufficient.

But it is entirly possible that they would have been commercially unsuccessful without Kodak's extensive help.

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion
X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present
Vapor Phase Chromatography
Ron , if it takes thousands in USA , it takes hundreds at China !
Can you learn who can do these research at China or is there anyone who knows China ?

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

I know several Chinese researchers

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 28, 2008

Ray Rogers ,

Who are they ? How can ı contact with them ?

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
...
For analysis, you need Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion, along with X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present. Even so, such work would miss Iridium, Osmium, Rhodium and probably Mercury, Cadmium?, and Sulfur + Gold levels. It would also miss any organic stabilzers and sensitizing dyes unless extremely precise Vapor Phase Chromatography or suchlike were done. An analysis could take several thousand dollars and weeks of my time analyzing the data.
...
You could use conventional film as Land did and formulate a single use goo. Then you could process in the dark using a paper you coated with a Carey Lea silver colloid.

PE

I agree.

I think the analyses of photographic material are over-rated.
Usually there are more than one way of doing things and there is little need to exactly replicate the process...
much more important is the behaviour.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 28, 2008

I wrote to Intertek. They have labs all over the world.
I think keeping the analysis at your hand is good subject for DIY book.
Ron , I will ask you more on the subject after first recontact with them.

Ray Rogers · Aug 28, 2008

Lucky and The Chinese Academy of Sciences

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Ray Rogers ,

Who are they ? How can ı contact with them ?

For general information on a public forum, all I can say is that most researchers publish their work. You can find out who has done what by watching the professional publications of universities and professional organizations. There are also professional laboratories that will undertake research but I would not go that way unless they had had extensive experience with photographic material.

I must say that I have not read your posts carefully yet and have only just briefly glanced at this thread, so I do not really know what it is you want to do, nor why.

Under these conditions I can do little more than to ask you to PM me with more info.

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

Mustafa;

I could probably make a "Polaroid" using a conventional commercially available film and a published monobath. I could not really duplicate the colloidal silver and reciever sheet well, as it is too complex. If you wish me to stop work on R&D on easy emulsions and on the book, then I might be able to do this, but you must realize that I've got a lot going on here and really have no interest in a "dead" product like this. I've developed a functional Azo paper when people are crying for Azo and no one has really beaten a path to my door. The workshops are underbooked and the interest is generally low notwithstanding the response on APUG.

In point of fact, film production at Kodak is still gently ratcheting downward a bit at a time every month. This is due to gradually lowering sales. It is really a very sad situation. And, I want to complete the job of making a handful of useful easy B&W emulsions for the home emulsion maker.

PE

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2008

This is becoming a rehash of the thread David refers to above. The emulsion is obviously derived somehow from a Kodak product, and Land probably reverse engineered it. His people were very good about these things as they had to start from scratch.

Even if you contact the Chinese, you have to know what to look for and you have to interpret the results. The analyses must be sensitive to values lower than 10^-6 moles / mole of silver or 1 mg / mole of silver. Those are tiny amounts when you consider how accurate you must be, or how large a sample you must use.

PE

Solving Polaroid PN 55 Secret

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