Solarizing a print

Photo Engineer · May 30, 2012

Guys;

If you use the same developer for pre and post flash, then the image tone is the same. If you use 2 developers, the image tone is different depending on what developer you use. Now, for a beginner, it is best to start simple, but for an advanced user, then more complex methods is useful.

If you wish to leave your conversation, please let me know as this is otherwise a waste of my time.

PE

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

I use two developers for more toning effects.. As stated in one of my earlier posts the second developer is the same as the first.
But it is charged with additional Potassium Bromide . By doing this I find that when I duo tone or tri tone I get more colours.

For negatives I use the single developer but for print my second developer has an addition of 450 grams of Potassium Bromide.

Yes , put in the second developer then flash.. takes about 5 seconds.. You can keep in one tray and you will get nice results... just think of it like South Carolina ribs vs Texas ribs... just a different way to get something nice.

tkamiya said:
I am a bit confused....

All articles talk about the first developer and the second developer. Are these the same developer with Metol? (I think they are?)

Also, is it that develop in first dev, put it in the second dev, FLASH? Then why two trays? Can I not just keep it in the same solution, bring it up to the surface and FLASH half way through the process?

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

There lies the difference of opinion . My experience tells me that Dektol will not work... you may be able to get somewhat basic results, but when I changed to the Metol only developer... BAMMM.. NOW WERE TALKIN.

Its kind of like lith printing... one can get basic results with lets say Kodak A B but always a bit weak... change to Champion AB and ...BAMMM.. NOW WERE TALKIN.

I strongly advise Tkamiya to read the paper by Mr Jolly and follow it to a tee... one of the most wonderful accurate descriptions on how to do this process I have seen.
I first started this path back in 2002 and 10 years later when I re read his paper its amazing how well he described what I have learned in the darkroom.

Michael R 1974 said:
Tkamiya: Why don't you try it the simple way first and proceed from there. I'm not sure why you'd have to use a Metol-only developer, other than if you wanted development to proceed more slowly or wanted a different image color or lower contrast. Just use your standard Dektol (Metol-Hydroquinone) or Warmtone or whatever else you have and flash 3/4 of the way through as PE suggested. I'll check a book later but I don't recall there being any special requirements with respect to developers etc. to get this to work. I'm not saying there wouldn't be differences with different developers, papers and techniques, but why not just try it using the materials you have and see what happens. Experiment a little, and then go from there into the more involved ways of doing this, such as those Bob is describing. There are likely lots of different ways of getting Sabattier effects, with all sorts of degrees, nuances and subtelties.

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

Aw common Ron , don't take your bats away we just got started.

Could you please explain technically how Potassium Bromide will change the grain structure therefore causing the post flash tones to go a different colour.. I would give it a go but I am just a lowly printer and do not want to talk scientific nonsense.

PE is right if you use the same dev for both baths there will not be a tone change and I only use two baths to inflict silver clumping radicalization tone effects. (post development, fix and wash) using bleach sepia , gold and selenium components to tone the print.

Photo Engineer said:
Guys;

If you use the same developer for pre and post flash, then the image tone is the same. If you use 2 developers, the image tone is different depending on what developer you use. Now, for a beginner, it is best to start simple, but for an advanced user, then more complex methods is useful.

If you wish to leave your conversation, please let me know as this is otherwise a waste of my time.

PE

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

Hang a point source light above your dev area if you end up really enjoy this process.. makes for easier work.

tkamiya said:
I'll just setup so that I can use my second enlarger as "flasher" then. (don't worry, I'm fully aware of water-electricity thing)

tkamiya · May 31, 2012

OK then, I'll hang a light above my dev tray. Easy enough to do.... I'll even have an electrician do it. (me)

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

Ok now I got you ... my lab requires rewiring .. I want you to come here and do it for all the advice I am imparting to you.. Probably two days work, I will supply the material and food.

google point light source... get a old step version,, modify it to just do single exposure ,, they are made to move with filters in place , and hang...
easy peasy.

I am attaching a couple of images from my last show here in Toronto ... These images are Sabatier images done by flashing the 8x10 negative... my early work was all print flashing.
These prints are murals on Art 300 duo toned with Bleach Sepia and a bit of strong Selenium.

tkamiya said:
OK then, I'll hang a light above my dev tray. Easy enough to do.... I'll even have an electrician do it. (me)

Photo Engineer · May 31, 2012

Bob;

The form of the developed silver image is changed by a number of things, and these changes impart changes in tone. Therefore, you can use 2 developers to get a toned effect in either the first or second image.

As for leaving the conversation, I will be happy to do so if my use of Sabattier is distracting even though accurate. I don't wish to subtract from anything especially your most excellent photos using the Sabattier effect as shown above.

PE

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

I am happy to call my prints Sabattier , though much harder to roll off the tonque than solarization.

Is Potassium Bromide not a restrainer and as such the clumping of the grains in the second developer different than those of the first non Pot Bromide developer, which causes a different tone in each chemical toning bath I use??

I have noticed almost four or more distinct tones beyond the basic print colour when doing this.

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

The form of the developed silver image is changed by a number of things, and these changes impart changes in tone. Therefore, you can use 2 developers to get a toned effect in either the first or second image.

As for leaving the conversation, I will be happy to do so if my use of Sabattier is distracting even though accurate. I don't wish to subtract from anything especially your most excellent photos using the Sabattier effect as shown above.

PE

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

This attachment is a Print Sabattier with Potassium Bromide as the second dev. It is Bleach Sepia , Selenium.

tkamiya · May 31, 2012

OK, raw chems are now ordered.

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

Gang up on the Sodium Sulphite as you can use it for hypo clear as well.
If you use the two dev method gang up on the Potassium Bromide as you can use it for your Bleach Sepia toning that you
are now going to be doing from scratch.

tkamiya said:
OK, raw chems are now ordered.

Photo Engineer · May 31, 2012

Bob;

You get one tone from the first developer and another tone from the positive image in the second developer. If bromide is the only difference, then it is due to bromide, but if there are changes in Metol and / or HQ, then all bets are off. Same for Sulfite. Even BTAZ or PMT can alter the image tone as is well known.

You probably cannot reverse the order of the tones though unless you add a wash step before the second developer such that all of "toning" chemistry A is removed before developer B is entered and the flash is done.

PE

Bob Carnie · May 31, 2012

Bromide is the only difference.. From what I remember from Mr Jolly's note the bromide(restrainer) changes the grain structure or clumping structure during the second development, which then gives a different type of tone for the second development. I have seen the difference just can't explain it well.

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

You get one tone from the first developer and another tone from the positive image in the second developer. If bromide is the only difference, then it is due to bromide, but if there are changes in Metol and / or HQ, then all bets are off. Same for Sulfite. Even BTAZ or PMT can alter the image tone as is well known.

You probably cannot reverse the order of the tones though unless you add a wash step before the second developer such that all of "toning" chemistry A is removed before developer B is entered and the flash is done.

PE

Photo Engineer · May 31, 2012

The form of the developed silver grains changes. There are several types such as filamentary, spherical, clumps and etc. Bromide can change this form from one to another during development (but not afterwards). Many chemicals do the same. There have been a number of papers on this.

PE

tkamiya · May 31, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
Gang up on the Sodium Sulphite as you can use it for hypo clear as well.
If you use the two dev method gang up on the Potassium Bromide as you can use it for your Bleach Sepia toning that you
are now going to be doing from scratch.

I did get a 5LBS bottle of Sodium Sulfite and Sodium Carbonate.

I think the recipe calls for Sodium Bromide. NOT Potassium Bromide.... Did I mess this up?

Photo Engineer · May 31, 2012

Either salt will work, but you must adjust for the difference in molecular weight.

PE

Bob Carnie · Jun 1, 2012

No you did not make a mistake

If you read further into the notes there is a section on duo tone methods which uses the second bath with Potassium bromide.. The colour change happens in the toning not the dev as PE points out.
If you stick with a one dev method you do not need Potassium Bromide.

I do my work both ways, so I have potassium bromide on hand as well it is one of the components for my sepia toning which I do a lot of.

tkamiya said:
I did get a 5LBS bottle of Sodium Sulfite and Sodium Carbonate.

I think the recipe calls for Sodium Bromide. NOT Potassium Bromide.... Did I mess this up?

tkamiya · Jun 1, 2012

I'll do the simple one first and see if I can manage that.

Thank you.

Bob Carnie · Jun 1, 2012

Just don't zzapp yourself, water and electricity same room,,, hmmmm

tkamiya said:
I'll do the simple one first and see if I can manage that.

Thank you.

tkamiya · Jun 1, 2012

I wanted to 'play' today so I tried this with what I had.... the end result was: totally black print!

I guess my second exposure was way too aggressive....

Photo Engineer · Jun 1, 2012

Too much light too early in the development phase.

PE

Bob Carnie · Jun 2, 2012

I am guessing the same thing.. how are you controlling the second exposure?

tkamiya said:
I wanted to 'play' today so I tried this with what I had.... the end result was: totally black print!

I guess my second exposure was way too aggressive....

Bob Carnie · Jun 2, 2012

Here is a sophisticated to scale diagram of my working technique.... patent pending.

tkamiya · Jun 2, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
how are you controlling the second exposure?

I wasn't.... I was just playing around. I stuck a tray in a tray developer under my second enlarger and turned it on for 2 seconds. I had everything setup already for a printing session so I thought I'll find out for myself how badly I can mess up. I was very successful....

I'm going to hang a small wattage bulb above my wet side and hook it up to a timer. It'll be similar to your setup except leg of the table won't be going through my foot. (ouch)

Serious attempt will have to wait until my chems arrive. Some of them went into back order so it might be a while before I can get them.

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