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Soke Engineering / Knokke film scanner

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Where does the idea that this scanner uses a 1:1 lens come from?

Georg clearly said that they are using a small sensor - much smaller than FF. This is also evident from product images. A 1:1 lens would necessarily mean that there would need to be some stitching if you want to scan 135 film. Product images certainly don't support that idea as lens and sensor board seem definitely fixed and I really can't imagine anyone designing a scanner like this that moves the film up and down to scan all the different parts of the frame.

What am I missing?!
 
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Btw, lens in Minolta 5400 desktop scanner is a 8/4 design (magnification 1.8x), Nikon CS 5000 uses a 7/4 lens.
 
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PS: I think it's also safe to assume that the choice has been for a CMOS image sensor with onboard ADC's since the electronics design and signal handling of doing that off-chip on a custom board would be akin to rocket science. No disrespect to the developers here, but that's a different league of EE.

Thanks @koraks - that helps a lot.

and thanks @gswdh and team. Never been interested in the whole DSLR scanning cottage industry but I'm incredibly interested in this project. It might be the replacement I need for when my Coolscan breaks.

Keep us posted!
 
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Where does the idea that this scanner uses a 1:1 lens come from?

Georg clearly said that they are using a small sensor - much smaller than FF. This is also evident from product images. A 1:1 lens would necessarily mean that there would need to be some stitching if you want to scan 135 film. Product images certainly don't support that idea as lens and sensor board seem definitely fixed and I really can't imagine anyone designing a scanner like this that moves the film up and down to scan all the different parts of the frame.

What am I missing?!

I was not saying that the scanner uses a 1:1 lens. Only that near 1:1 a symmetrical lens automatically cancels much of the distortion you would otherwise have to correct for.

The actual magnification could be significantly less or significantly more and still show much of the cancellation provided by this type of design.

1:2 magnification or even 1:3 magnification are usually still within that range of being considered near 1:1 or near macro.
 
Hoping for the best on this one, but if its yet another consumer scanner that can't meet the standard of a 20+ year old consumer scanner (Coolscan 5000, or 4000/V even) outside of speed, it'd be a pretty big bummer.

Am I correct in understanding it at least has a narrowband RGB light source (though unfortunately not paired with a mono sensor)?
 
Of course! I've been a long time lurker from way back in the APUG days. In fact I arrived here because an extremely generous person (who I can't remember the name of) gifted me an Nikon F3 on the condition of a token donation to APUG when I was a poor student around 12 years ago.

Yes we get a lot of requests for scans but I'm just not 100% happy with them yet although some do exist on the internet out there however you wouldn't know which ones. I'm finding the feedback on Instagram overwhelming positive but also extremely quick to criticise so posting something a little sub par with the promise of getting better in the future wouldn't do a lot of good I don't think. Scans should be availble in the next couple of weeks, tho. Almost everything is working great but we've had some troubles with some Chinese suppliers and a design engineer setting everything back a couple of months.

I think I might start a new thread considering how much has changed. I will open one with some scans :smile:.

Any update on those scans...?
 
Hi all, sorry I've been quiet on this. It's been quite an eventful 6 months or so, we hit a few bits of bad luck that almost sank the project but the end is in sight now. I will have some news in the coming weeks.
 
Lots of discussion above about line vs area sensors but no one has mentioned the focus implications of the two approaches. Based on the outward design of this scanner I had assumed it was a linear sensor with a curved film path. A curved film path + linear sensor very nicely solves a lot of film flatness issues ensuring excellent focus (see Imacon, Pakon F135).

Having just learned from this thread that this will not be a linear sensor means that it will also not be a curved film path. Obviously there are other ways to attempt to ensure flatness but I think there is a lot to be said for the curved approach.

My KM5400 scanner has an excellent sensor and lens yet at full resolution often film flatness is an issue (usually the exposures at the ends of the strips: I have tried all kinds of things like modifying slide mounts, etc).

I hope they have solved for film curl (in both axes). I guess DoF of the lens system also is a factor (KM5400 is quite a narrow DoF for whatever reason). Excited to see more about this project!
 
There are major trade-offs between linear and area sensors, and in this application an area sensor ultimately made far more sense due to the constraints linear sensors impose on the optics and backlight system.

A linear sensor operates at extremely high line rates, meaning the integration time is incredibly short - often in the microsecond range. This requires a very high-power backlight to achieve proper exposure. Creating a light source that is both powerful and perfectly uniform is difficult, requires substantial thermal dissipation, and limits LED selection significantly.

These constraints then affect the lens design. Because exposure times are so short, the lens needs to be fast, which makes consistent focusing much more difficult, especially once thermal expansion from the backlight and the realities of manufacturing and the postal system are considered.

Initially, I used this area sensor in a line-scan style mode by reducing the number of lines read out. Although it worked technically, it did not make for a viable commercial product. For this reason, I moved to using the same sensor as an area scanner and compositing multiple images, which has proven to be extremely effective. While the sensor itself is physically small, its optical and electrical performance is high.

Sensor size itself is a huge topic that is often difficult to communicate when selling a product like this. People naturally apply the logic of “bigger sensor = better,” but a film scanner is fundamentally different from a handheld camera. The requirements and operating conditions are completely different.

Unlike a camera, a scanner operates in a fully controlled environment. We control the light source completely rather than relying on natural lighting, meaning the sensor can operate continuously in its ideal range at base ISO, where performance is excellent. Because of this, a small sensor with small pixels can deliver extremely high image quality in this application.

Using a much larger sensor, such as full frame, would massively increase cost and complexity while providing little practical benefit. The sensor alone would currently cost more than the entire scanner. A larger sensor would also require a much larger and more complex lens, a larger enclosure, more demanding mechanics, and significantly higher overall system cost.

The important point is that scanner performance is determined by the performance of the complete optical system, not sensor size alone.
 
Thanks for that insight into you reasoning @gswdh, I find it very interesting!

One thing that piques my interest; perhaps you can comment:
Because exposure times are so short, the lens needs to be fast
I understand this (I'm familiar with integrating sensor systems so I can intuitively follow your argument revolving around integration time and throughput) - but at the same time, wouldn't arguments revolving around diffraction and the limitations stemming from this also drive you towards a fast lens/large aperture?
 
Thanks for that insight into you reasoning @gswdh, I find it very interesting!

One thing that piques my interest; perhaps you can comment:

I understand this (I'm familiar with integrating sensor systems so I can intuitively follow your argument revolving around integration time and throughput) - but at the same time, wouldn't arguments revolving around diffraction and the limitations stemming from this also drive you towards a fast lens/large aperture?

Again it doesn't quite work like that for scanners as the application is so much different but of course fundamental physics applies. In the scanner we have the luxury of a lens being 100% fixed in working distance and aperture so it only needs to be designed for exactly one use case (which also enables a much simpler lens design).

This means the lens design for the scanner can be pushed for one exact setup and then optimised for that. In this case we are pushing the lens aperture just before the diffraction limit at around f5.

A larger sensor will only really help with sensitivity but it's useless if we can't make the aperture any smaller.
 
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