So much for mechanical cameras

Alan Edward Klein · Jul 20, 2023

Chan Tran said:
yes in the 70's many people only keep their cars for 3 years.

When our three year lease ended in Jan 2022 in the middle of Covid, there were no cars to buy or lease, new or old. So we extended our old lease on a monthly basis for months and months. Finally, we saw that the buyout prices for us were around $7000 less than the used price to buy it on the outside. So, we bought it.

Alan Edward Klein · Jul 20, 2023

GregY said:
If you keep any camera long enough it's initial cost get outpaced .....My first M2 bought in 1967 cost $175 Cdn ($162 USD), nowadays it would cost about $40 each way to ship it to DAG for repair......never mind the cost of the repair. Yet it's a very capable camera when in working condition.
I paid $1k for this Leica....which had been a brick for years nowView attachment 344364

But it's a Leica brick!

Paul Howell · Jul 20, 2023

Chan Tran said:
yes in the 70's many people only keep their cars for 3 years.

In the 60s cars came with a one year 12,000 warranty, once at 36,000 an engine needed major work, values, rings, freeze plugs, muffler, water pump, carburetor. Today warranties range from 7 to 10 years, up to 100,000 miles. 60 years is a long time, manufacturing engineering are very advanced compared to the 60s or 70s. My father traded in his car every 3 years or sooner at 30,000.

MattKing · Jul 20, 2023

Chan Tran said:
yes in the 70's many people only keep their cars for 3 years.

Much of that had to do with the financing options and purchase prices available back then.
That and the fact that a huge percentage of the new car sales each year were to the rental car agencies.

GregY · Jul 20, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
We heard it over and over again:'keep your mechanical cameras; at least they can be still repaired if something goes wrong. My experience, including a recent Nikon FM failure, is quite different:It is actually very hard to find a repair service for old mechanical cameras. And if you should be lucky enough to find one, hope not to need spare parts, because there are none. Furthermore, The whole deal will cost you more than a new camera!

For the most part, mechanical cameras need service occasionally. Typically it's not parts that break. Lots of old Pentax, Leica, Nikon still operating. I don't think any one on this forum needs encouragement to buy more cameras.

Roger Cole · Jul 20, 2023

Don_ih said:
I was driving on one of the busiest highways in the country yesterday and mentioned to my son that it's amazing what the car industry has managed to do. You look around now at any of the 100s of cars that are driving around you and almost none of them are more than 10 years old. But 30 years ago, you would normally see over half of them were over 10 years old and a large portion of them were over 20 years old. They've becomes so reliable. ... Are "reliable" and "disposable" synonyms?

I have two cars. One is 20 years old (2003) and the other is 12 (2011.) The 2003 has over 260k miles on it, the 2011 185k. I bought both of them new and put all those miles on myself. On the 2011 car I've replaced one oxygen sensor and done routine maintenance and wear items like tires, and that's IT. Both still run perfectly. I've done a few more repairs to the 2003 but not that many.

Cars really are VASTLY more reliable than they used to be. I'm old enough to remember when a car with 100k miles was worn completely out. Now that's barely getting started.

juan · Jul 20, 2023

I think my 8x10 with barrel lens and lens cap shutter will keep going a good while.

250swb · Jul 20, 2023

When was the last time parts for a Barnack Leica were manufactured or available off the shelf? Who's suggesting you can't have these repaired anymore? So there you go, it's too simplistic to throw your hands in the air and wail, keeping cameras going is as much to do with desire than sulking about difficult to find parts. This isn't even true yet for a Barnack Leica but when the camera becomes rare enough to have a true value the parts will be repaired, sourced from damaged cameras, or remade. In the meantime it's going to be a fact of life that when a Nikon fails and it's too expensive to have it repaired, buy another.

Jeremy Mudd · Jul 20, 2023

runswithsizzers said:
Just this morning, I was making a list of things to worry about. So far:

1. Lethal heat waves and extreme storms will prevent me from going outside to take photos.

2. Putin is going to push the Big Red Button, and it will be too radioactive to go outside and take photos.

3. Civil war will be followed by a complete breakdown of society, and it will be too dangerous to go outside and take photos.

4. My four mechanical SLRs will all break, and I wont be able to go outside and take photos.

5. A collapse of the financial system will wipe out my life savings, and I will have to move outside and live in a tent camp and eat whatever I can find in dumpsters.

Now, all I have to do is make sure the items on my list are in the right order, so I will know which ones to worry about the most. ;-)

#5 really sounds like the best-case scenario.

Jeremy

Pioneer · Jul 20, 2023

The key to the entire conundrum is to buy a whole bunch of old cameras of various formats, both electronic and mechanical. Then shoot two or three roll/sheets of film through each one every couple of years. If it breaks send it in to someone reliable for repair, if you can find anyone. It also helps to buy new/old stock when you can can find it.

I have actually been fortunate. Most of my cameras are still working. Some of them have slow shutters or occasional frame overlaps if I don't load them right. But it is still pretty rare for them to totally give up and go to that great shelf in the sky. They are a bit like me, you have to give them credit for what they have done and give them a little love and understanding to keep them running.

I do have an old Nicca 3 that I need to get to DAG to have the shutter curtain repaired. At least we can get those old Barnacks fixed.

My Spotmatic and K1000 have been pretty bulletproof as well and I recently got my old SV back from a film transport cleaning and shutter tune up so it will run well for a while...at least until the weather turns cold again. Nothing works really well around this house at 20 below (negative 18 for those across the pond.)

Paul Howell · Jul 20, 2023

Sorry, should have been more clear, the gear in question is found in their lower end 35mm, have not used any Pentax MF so no idea what the issues are.

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
We heard it over and over again:'keep your mechanical cameras; at least they can be still repaired if something goes wrong. My experience, including a recent Nikon FM failure, is quite different:It is actually very hard to find a repair service for old mechanical cameras. And if you should be lucky enough to find one, hope not to need spare parts, because there are none. Furthermore, The whole deal will cost you more than a new camera!

Keep your mechanical cameras; at least they can be still repaired if something goes wrong,

Alan Edward Klein said:
People are holding onto cars longer than ever. Probably because the cost to buy new is so prohibitive for many. 12.2 years is the average age. My wife and my cars are 11 and 4 years old. Guess who drives the newer one?

"...The average age of a car on U.S. roads is now a little over 12 years, marking a new record, according to S&P Mobility, continuing a five-year climb..."

The average age of a car in the US is up to 12.2 years, a new record. How old is yours?

The average age of a car on U.S. roads is now a little over 12 years old, marking a new record, according to S&P Mobility,

www.usatoday.com

I have two cars:

My daily driver is 26 years old and still looks new with 240,000 miles [386,242 km].
My off road car was bought used and beaten as a daily driver and I had it lifted, roll cage and other equipment added and it is 25 years old with 160,000 miles [257495 km]

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

Arthurwg said:
This is why I keep a never used NOS Hasselblad on my shelf.

If needs to be exercised occasionally or it will need a costly CLA later.

4season · Jul 20, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
We heard it over and over again:'keep your mechanical cameras; at least they can be still repaired if something goes wrong. My experience, including a recent Nikon FM failure, is quite different:It is actually very hard to find a repair service for old mechanical cameras. And if you should be lucky enough to find one, hope not to need spare parts, because there are none. Furthermore, The whole deal will cost you more than a new camera!

This is why Pentax is working on a new 35 mm film camera.

I've been teaching myself how to repair cameras, and almost every film camera that I've purchased has needed some servicing. Deteriorated foam and damage caused by neglect or battery leakage are the most common problems, followed by dried-out or contaminated lubricants, failed electrolytic capacitors, and in general, materials which haven't aged well. Occasionally I see signs of what appears to be planned obsolescence (hello Fujifilm) but mostly I think it's simply a matter of the camera designer not anticipating that their creations might still be in use decades later.

Europan · Jul 20, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
a recent Nikon FM failure

RalphLambrecht said:
The whole deal will cost you more than a new camera!

So initially you balance the two against each other. Then, more importantly in my opinion, you need to discern between good and lesser mechanical equipment. That, of course, calls for know-how. I repair and service purely mechanical motion-picture items and can explain things to my clients. If someone asks me to consider repair of a wobbly projector, I will say no. If you have something serious, Bell & Howell, Ampro, RCA, Victor or other, chances are that I can bring everything to working order for a long time to come. Some movie cameras can be oiled for example, these will still work in 200 years. A Nikon FM contains very delicate parts, I shouldn’t call it explicitly robust or rugged. Other makes are. It’s as simple as that.

DREW WILEY · Jul 20, 2023

I look at things this way : many of those mechanical cameras were built to last. Later electronic ones were often marketed on the presumption people would want the latest and greatest bells n whistles every few years instead. So it depends on what condition that mechanical camera might be in when you buy it. The only 35mm camera I still use is a mechanical FM2n, which I bought new; and I'm quite certain it will long outlast me. Other mechanical 35's I've owned included the venerable early Pentax H1a and the Pentax MX. Both went through utter hell in the mountains and deserts. A shutter speed gear finally wore out on the H1a, and the MX went to my nephew who used it for multiple extreme climbing expeditions in the Arctic, Andes, Karakoram, and Himalyas, among numerous other places, and it did fine the whole time.
I don't think that could be said about fancier or electronic cameras; it heard nothing but complaints from mountaineers who tried those. One of them, a Himalayan super-star climber, went back to his FM2n.

But for forty years, I shot almost nothing in the mountains except view cameras, which are obviously mechanical in every respect. Once in awhile, getting older, mechanical MF gear, like my Fuji 6x9 RF's.

jeffreyg · Jul 20, 2023

Runswithsizzers if it happens to be #2 on your list you won’t have to go outside just put your film out—it will get exposed with no camera necessary

Don_ih · Jul 20, 2023

Roger Cole said:
I have two cars. One is 20 years old (2003) and the other is 12 (2011.) The 2003 has over 260k miles on it, the 2011 185k. I bought both of them new and put all those miles on myself. On the 2011 car I've replaced one oxygen sensor and done routine maintenance and wear items like tires, and that's IT. Both still run perfectly. I've done a few more repairs to the 2003 but not that many.

Cars really are VASTLY more reliable than they used to be. I'm old enough to remember when a car with 100k miles was worn completely out. Now that's barely getting started.

Well, cars in the southern US and cars in southern Europe are going to last longer than cars up here in the heavily salted north. The engines never fail but the rest of the car rusts out pretty quickly. And I put about 100k miles on a car in 5-6 years. Everywhere you go here is an hour in one direction or other.
There's no denying the reliability of cars and how much more reliable they are than ever before. But they still get turned over at a remarkable rate, here - and any accident that sets off the airbag past their 4-year-birthday is a write-off (it costs more to replace the airbag and dash components than the list price of the car).

BrianShaw · Jul 20, 2023

As Benjamin Franklin said, “Don’t believe everything that you read on the internet!”

And immediately after that he said, “I cannot tell a lie.”

cerber0s · Jul 20, 2023

I play guitar and frequent a few guitar forums. The exact same discussions surface on those forums from time to time, digital amplifiers vs analog amplifiers, valves (tubes) vs solid state, the sound of this vs that, how much easier it is to repair a tube amp vs a modern digital amp, the future availability of new tubes etc. etc.

Alex Benjamin · Jul 20, 2023

runswithsizzers said:
Just this morning, I was making a list of things to worry about. So far:

1. Lethal heat waves and extreme storms will prevent me from going outside to take photos.

2. Putin is going to push the Big Red Button, and it will be too radioactive to go outside and take photos.

3. Civil war will be followed by a complete breakdown of society, and it will be too dangerous to go outside and take photos.

4. My four mechanical SLRs will all break, and I wont be able to go outside and take photos.

5. A collapse of the financial system will wipe out my life savings, and I will have to move outside and live in a tent camp and eat whatever I can find in dumpsters.

Now, all I have to do is make sure the items on my list are in the right order, so I will know which ones to worry about the most. ;-)

You forgot

6. I will be replaced by an AI which will artificially create the photos I would have taken had I gone outside to take photos.

Alex Benjamin · Jul 20, 2023

Chan Tran said:
yes in the 70's many people only keep their cars for 3 years.

That's because marketing made you believe you needed a new car every three years to keep your status symbol aligned with the times.

Thing is, most mechanical machines are build to last, unless they are poorly build, or purposefully build not to last. That last case, though, planned obsolescence, is more common in electronic machines.

The brilliance—in marketing/sales terms—of the iPhone is to combine both, i.e., to make you believe you absolutely need the latest model at the moment when your present model is about to fail.

Alex Benjamin · Jul 20, 2023

Should add that while both mechanical and electronic machines eventually fail, electronic components are much more damaging to the environment than mechanical ones, which can be recycled.

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

Don_ih said:
Well, cars in the southern US and cars in southern Europe are going to last longer than cars up here in the heavily salted north. The engines never fail but the rest of the car rusts out pretty quickly. And I put about 100k miles on a car in 5-6 years. Everywhere you go here is an hour in one direction or other.
There's no denying the reliability of cars and how much more reliable they are than ever before. But they still get turned over at a remarkable rate, here - and any accident that sets off the airbag past their 4-year-birthday is a write-off (it costs more to replace the airbag and dash components than the list price of the car).

These days almost any car or truck that deploys an air bag is totaled out because neither the insurance companies nor the repair shops want to put themselves in the position where the deployed air bag was replaced and did not work later at a subsequent accident.

ph · Jul 20, 2023

Interesting reflections.
There absolutely are old devices that can be repaired , and ideally one should design things to last and be maintainable Cameras and cars have beeen mentioned. Houses should be added.

Even old cameras can happen to work for a long time. A forthnight ago I got film developed that I had exposed in a 1939 Zeiss Tenax II and the frames that I had not messed up were properly contrasty and sharp (sonnar 40mm f 2 + snap on sunshade). My daily user, however, is a much more recent digital.

Our 60 year old landRover series IIa built of aluminium and with a galvanized frame added does not rust and is usually quite mobile , but currently parked for safety reasons (with some transfercase gearoil having leaked into the propshaft-situated handbrake drum) and the daily use for mobility as always is public transport.

The house I live in was built 100years ago this year . its suitably thick stone foundation keeps a pleasantly cool temperature even if the outside is exceptionally warm (and in winter added insulation and tight window and doorseals keeps the heat indoors. )

Good design, planning and maintenance is the key to the longevity of things.

p.

So much for mechanical cameras

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