So how difficult is printing from color negs in the darkroom?

rpavich · Feb 28, 2017

I've been printing black and white for a while now and have a good handle on it but I don't shoot a lot of color film because for me, the "end of the line" is the print and I just don't get that thrilled over scanning color negatives and posting them on flickr. I don't like printing from scans either...it just doesn't thrill me.
Which is what brings me to my question; how difficult is it for someone with just a color diffusion head (Beseler Dual Dichro S head) to print color?
Is it doable or is it impossible without lots of extra gear?
Is it difficult enough that I won't get any or many keepers and thus makes it not worth doing?

I don't see a lot of folks talking about their color darkroom printing which is why I ask.

I'm not talking about getting anal about everything, just printing color 4x6 or 3.5x5 keepsake snapshots.

Sirius Glass · Feb 28, 2017

With a color head it is doable. I plan on using Jobo drums, however others have used tubes and trays. They can fill you in on the details.

dE fENDER · Feb 28, 2017

As for me it's easy to get a good RA-4 print than usual b/w, but you have not too much control of the process.

rpavich · Feb 28, 2017

dE fENDER said:
As for me it's easy to get a good RA-4 print than usual b/w, but you have not too much control of the process.

Do you use open trays?
I'm just planning on doing it just like black and white without the safe lights being on.

perkeleellinen · Feb 28, 2017

I think colour might be easier than black and white, especially if you standardise on one film. Nothing beats pulling a colour print out of your darkroom!

This is the thread that was most helpful to me when I started: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

bvy · Feb 28, 2017

rpavich said:
Do you use open trays?
I'm just planning on doing it just like black and white without the safe lights being on.

You can, but I found it messy and stinky. I use drums and a motor base. You can work in room light, you use less chemistry, and you're not inhaling chemicals from an open tray. It's a bit more up front investment, but it works great for me and others.

As has been said, you have less control over the process, which makes it both easier and potentially more frustrating. Primarily what's being referred to is contrast control. It's not like black and white where you have graded or multigraded paper. There are some tricks to controlling contrast in the color darkroom ranging from simple things like chemical additives to more advanced things like masking. You'll be happier, at least initially, working with negatives that are properly exposed and have a good range of tones.

MattKing · Feb 28, 2017

The drums and motor base work equally well with black and white, so if like me you have a temporary darkroom, you can use that equipment as well to aid in doing "quick" prints.

bvy · Feb 28, 2017

MattKing said:
The drums and motor base work equally well with black and white, so if like me you have a temporary darkroom, you can use that equipment as well to aid in doing "quick" prints.

Right. I've been doing 11x14 black in white in drums. Drums are also great for processing sheet film.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 28, 2017

Having done some printing in the past in the past, I will make these two comments. It is easier if you have a color analyzer that determines the filtration to use. The paper must be handled in total darkness when loading drums or tray developing. Therefore it is important to observe what the French call mise en place. Everything in place before you start.

After about a year I decided that color printing was a pain in the ass and I really liked B&W better. There is always that negative that WILL NOT balance.

Wayne · Feb 28, 2017

Its easy to get "acceptable" results and since I started using trays, it became MUCH easier. Expertise of course requires a lot of time. I put my tray in a larger tray of water that has an aquarium heater. The color developer has an amine smell, but its not that bad to me and I don't even notice it most of the time. I always use good ventilation. I've never used a color analyzer but would like to try one. I use Kodak Print Viewing Filters. I use a #13 safelight just to help me find the sink and trays without falling down, (my sink is about 35 feet from my enlarger!) but I usually turn it off once the print is in the developer. Though I've also left it on with no noticeable effects.

I've also used drums but its a PIA compared to trays.

Andrew K · Feb 28, 2017

best tip I can give you is one I was given years ago - time and temperature. Keep them consistent.

And make sure your prints are dry when you evaluate them for color balance - under a daylight balanced light! (Don't ask - I've made a few mistakes in my 30 + years working in the photographic trade..)

Andrew K · Feb 28, 2017

oh - and if you live in an area where the power supply is a bit erratic - a voltage stabilzor makes things easier and means you can print the same print twice without getting a weird color shift

mshchem · Feb 28, 2017

It's so easy with RA 4 chemistry. In the old CP5 days temperature control was critical. With RA 4 you develop to completion. So if you use a tube you can get it nice and warm, get your chemistry nice and warm (I have a microwave in my darkroom for gently warming chemistry in a beaker ) . If you develop at 95 F to 105 F develop for a minute, if you go to a minute and a half it doesn't matter. I've done a lot of testing with a Kodak rapid color processor, I have mine set at 100 F I usually go for about 1 min developer, then a stop bath for 20 to 30 seconds, 1 min blix then wash for 1.5 minutes. No stabilizer required if wash is complete, but if it makes you more comfortable stabilize.

I shoot Portra 400 120 roll film. Once you get the filter pack down it won't change with same film and paper. The only cut sheets of paper is Fuji crystal archive, very nice paper but the paper stock is thin. Kodak is only in rolls bummer.

Having a real color print that the ink doesn't run when it gets a droplet of water is great. The paper is much cheaper than black and white. In the good old days Kodak would print suggested starting filter pack on the box. Make sure you start with fresh paper and to start no safelights to fog your paper.
Get a old Beseler, Unicolor, Jobo tube prewarm and roll it back and forth on a counter. Easier than black and white.
Best Regards Mike

mshchem · Feb 28, 2017

dE fENDER said:
As for me it's easy to get a good RA-4 print than usual b/w, but you have not too much control of the process.

Absolutely agree 100%. It's a just a matter of balance of filtration and exposure time.
Best Regards Mike

bvy · Feb 28, 2017

mshchem said:
I shoot Portra 400 120 roll film. Once you get the filter pack down it won't change with same film and paper.

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Filtration can change between frames on the same roll depending on the light. It gets you in the ballpark though. Keep good notes and be consistent with your processing (paper and film).

mshchem · Mar 1, 2017

bvy said:
That's a bit of an oversimplification. Filtration can change between frames on the same roll depending on the light. It gets you in the ballpark though. Keep good notes and be consistent with your processing (paper and film).

Absolutely agree. I tend to shoot color on sunny days. Or use a big soft box with flash. I never tried shooting (daylight ) color film with artificial light etc. I have found that by getting the filter pack right for open daylight mid day or electronic flash covers most applications for me,. If it's yellow late afternoon winter light that's the way the print comes out with my standard filter pack.
I think you need a color meter and gels if you want to shoot film in artificial light, I've never had much luck trying to correct for florescent lighting etc in the darkroom . That's where the miracle of digital photography first lured me in. White balance.
I'm more of a sunny spring tulips kind of color guy.
Point taken
Best Regards Mike

agregov · Mar 1, 2017

While it might fun to mess around with printing RA4 in trays, realistically it's not a dependable way to make color prints. RA4 developer is very sensitive to temperture. Ideally you want to be pretty much exactly at 35C. If you're off, you'll have color cast issues. Also, to color correct efficiently, the print needs to be dry. Otherwise again, you'll have trouble with color casts. If you're serious, you would need something like a Jobo or table top processor like a Funjimoto CP-31 and a print dryer. The nice thing about the Jobo direction, is if you decide you don't like the analog color workflow, you've got a great machine for processing film.

IMO, the hardest thing to learn in analog color is how to see and correct color casts. I'd suggest finding a class or experienced color printer to learn from. Henry Hornstein offers a good book on analog color. Rayko in San Fransicco offers classes in color printing. There you learn using a 50" Colex processor. Once you print with a processor, you won't think about trying tray processing.

RPC · Mar 1, 2017

agregov, RA-4 can be developed in trays at typical room temperatures (68-75F), for two minutes with Kodak Ektacolor RA-RT Developer-Replenisher, minimizing temperature effects and giving excellent results. I used to use a drum, and when room temp processing became available I switched to trays and never looked back, as my productivity increased significantly and I wouldn't think of buying a processor.

BMbikerider · Mar 1, 2017

For me, the easiest way to get consistent results when printing RA4 is to use a NOVA deeptank processor. It is thermostatically controlled and can be fine tuned to keep that constant. The smell of the stop bath and bleach fix is largely reduced and the life of the developer, providing it is replenished regularly, can be almost forever. I have used one mix for close on 2 years (with replenishment of 10cc per 80 sq ins).

The NOVA is far more convenient than dishes or using a rotary processor. The dishes can give off all sorts of fumes and needs efficient ventilation. The rotary processing drums have to be rinsed out and dried between each print, so slowing your work and using your time.

If you do decide to go down the route of a NOVA, another tip that I was given ages ago was, after finishing processing, replenish all the baths the after replacing the lids is to cover the tops of the processor with something like 'Clingfilm' as used in a kitchen. This slows down evaporation and if a good seal is made, as the processor cools down a partial vacuum is formed inside which will increase the life of the developer.

RPC · Mar 1, 2017

A processor is fine if you don't mind spending the money but trays at room temp are simply the cheapest and fastest way to start printing color. I highly recommend it for beginners.

darkosaric · Mar 1, 2017

rpavich said:
Do you use open trays?
I'm just planning on doing it just like black and white without the safe lights being on.

I have done that - with gloves it is ok. Biggest problem for me was not total darkness, or open trays - problem was to get the color right, and very short exposure time (18x24cm paper in V35 focomat at f8 --> exposure time was around 3-4 sec, no time for dodging and burning, and my negatives were exposed and developed ok).

dE fENDER · Mar 1, 2017

rpavich said:
Do you use open trays?
I'm just planning on doing it just like black and white without the safe lights being on.

Yes, I do use open trays. I'ts even possible to use visual control with very dimmed indirect green light for several seconds. But, as noted before - exposure time is too short.

btaylor · Mar 1, 2017

For all the time it takes to get a nice print I don't know if it's worth it for 4x6 prints. Although if you aren't too picky on quality (density mostly, providing no mixed lighting) I used to print 2 negs on an 8x10 sheet of paper, and batch process 4 sheets in a 16x20 drum, so 8 prints at a time, fairly efficient time wise.
Now I have a roller processor and I prefer 8x10 prints for anything I consider a "keeper," but it gets time consuming. Dry to dry is about 5 minutes, and most take 2 or 3 tries to get a print I really like, so including time at the enlarger and evaluating prints that's about a half hour per satisfactory print.
I haven't tried open tray processing, but I find the chemical smells hard to tolerate even with my enclosed processor. The processing drums keep the smell down too, because the chemistry amount is small and one shot.
I have a color analyzer but have never used it. I find it pretty easy to color balance. First, be careful (aware) of your light sources. Shooting unbalanced is a PIA to correct in the darkroom so do it in camera with the correct filters if you can. I usually shoot color outdoors, and nearly all modern color neg film is daylight balanced so that's easy. Shoot a properly exposed gray card for each film and light source you're going to use! Makes color/density adjustments a snap in the darkroom using color viewing filters and a color wheel. Just compare the actual gray card to your print and you'll get there quickly, write down the results for future use. After that I am mostly only evaluating density to get the print I like.

rpavich · Mar 1, 2017

Thanks for the comments everyone! I don't know why I wasn't getting the email alerts...hmm.

Looks like the easiest and most cost effective way to find out if this is for me is to buy an RA-4 kit and some paper and try open tray at room temp. That's what i'll do first to see if this is something I'd like to do.
Much appreciated all, thanks for taking the time to help.

Wayne · Mar 1, 2017

rpavich said:
Thanks for the comments everyone! I don't know why I wasn't getting the email alerts...hmm.

Looks like the easiest and most cost effective way to find out if this is for me is to buy an RA-4 kit and paper and try open tray at room temp. That's what i'll do first to see if this is something I'd like to do.
Much appreciated all, thanks for taking the time to help.

If you can't tolerate the smell (there shouldn't be much if you are ventilating properly) then you can always try drums. Your exhaust fan should be on the opposite side of your sink from you, pulling fumes away from you and out of the room, with fresh air being sucked past you from behind. The suggestion for gloves is a good one. Harbor Freight has good deals on nitrile gloves.

Someone mentioned the smell of stop bath. Some people, myself included don't even use one. I think its only required for larger prints or if you see mottling.

I said I use a #10 safelight above but its #13. I will go edit that if I still can

So how difficult is printing from color negs in the darkroom?

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