Slide Projector Lens Comparisons

[Henning Serger]

{Moderator's Note: We have moved the initial posts here from a thread relating to the subject of reversal processing, found here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...x-scala-or-bellini.209157/page-6#post-2832783}

I found a page online that tests different projection lenses and thought it would be useful to share here since this thread is also about slide projection: https://deltalenses.com/projector-lens-group-test-1-fast-90s/

Thanks Miha.
Just an addition from my side, as I have also tested projection lenses:
From my results I can put the Leica Super-Colorplan and the Zeiss P-Sonnar on a higher ranking compared to the results in the test you have linked.
And my assessment is confirmed by several other tests done and published in Germany (which has been the country in which slide projection has been most popular).
Based on my and these other published tests I can give the following recommendations for different projector brands:

Leica:
Best lens: Leica Super-Colorplan 2.5/90.
Second best: Leica Colorplan 2.5/90 and Zeiss P-Sonnar 2.5/90 (it can be used in the PC projector line with a slight adjustment).

Zeiss-Ikon / Zett:
Best lens: Zeiss P-Sonnar 2.5/90.

Kindermann silent 1500 / 2500 series:
Best lens: Kindermann MC-B 2.4/90 (made by Docter Optics, this lens has an aperture and can be stopped down).

Braun Paximat Multimag series:
Best lenses: Braun Ultralit PL 2.4/90 and Braun Ultralit 2.8/85 MC-B (with aperture).

Rollei Rolleivision twin series (35mm):
Best lens: Rollei AV-Apogon 2.4/90.

Rollei Rolleivision 66 medium format projectors:
Best lenses: Schneider AV-Xenotar 2.8/150 and Rollei AV-Apogon 2.8/120.

Kindermann diafocus 66T medium format projector:
Best lens: Kindermann 2.8/150 MC.

For slide projection I always recommend using the best lense(s) for the specific projector available.
It is really worth it!

Best regards,
Henning

 

[miha]

You are welcome @Henning Serger . As for the Kindermann lens - I wonder why would a projection lens need an aperture? My Pradovit has a switch to adjust brightness, with a 'normal' setting for full brightness and a dimmed option to help extend the lamp's life. I don't understand why anyone would want to dim the brightness through the lens aperture.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Thanks Miha.
Just an addition from my side, as I have also tested projection lenses:
From my results I can put the Leica Super-Colorplan and the Zeiss P-Sonnar on a higher ranking compared to the results in the test you have linked.
And my assessment is confirmed by several other tests done and published in Germany (which has been the country in which slide projection has been most popular).
Based on my and these other published tests I can give the following recommendations for different projector brands:

Leica:
Best lens: Leica Super-Colorplan 2.5/90.
Second best: Leica Colorplan 2.5/90 and Zeiss P-Sonnar 2.5/90 (it can be used in the PC projector line with a slight adjustment).

Zeiss-Ikon / Zett:
Best lens: Zeiss P-Sonnar 2.5/90.

Kindermann silent 1500 / 2500 series:
Best lens: Kindermann MC-B 2.4/90 (made by Docter Optics, this lens has an aperture and can be stopped down).

Braun Paximat Multimag series:
Best lenses: Braun Ultralit PL 2.4/90 and Braun Ultralit 2.8/85 MC-B (with aperture).

Rollei Rolleivision twin series (35mm):
Best lens: Rollei AV-Apogon 2.4/90.

Rollei Rolleivision 66 medium format projectors:
Best lenses: Schneider AV-Xenotar 2.8/150 and Rollei AV-Apogon 2.8/120.

Kindermann diafocus 66T medium format projector:
Best lens: Kindermann 2.8/150 MC.

For slide projection I always recommend using the best lense(s) for the specific projector available.
It is really worth it!

Best regards,
Henning

Thanks!
Are you aware of any good ~60mm projection lens - neat to have large image in smaller rooms.

As for the Kindermann lens - I wonder why would a projection lens need an aperture?

Increased optical performance when stopped down a bit as with most lenses I've read about?
And possibly larger DOF for deeper focusing field, resulting in less focusing issues?

 

[miha]

Increased optical performance when stopped down a bit as with most lenses I've read about?

I don't think this is the case. If you read the literature, Leica advertised the Super Colorplan to be on par with their APO taking lenses. Achieving optimal quality already at f/2.5 with a 90mm lens designed specifically for the projection of a 2-dimensional object is an easier task for optical designers than achieving the same on a comparable taking lens.

 

[Henning Serger]

You are welcome @Henning Serger . As for the Kindermann lens - I wonder why would a projection lens need an aperture? My Pradovit has a switch to adjust brightness, with a 'normal' setting for full brightness and a dimmed option to help extend the lamp's life. I don't understand why anyone would want to dim the brightness through the lens aperture.

Hello Miha,

good question, and I will try to answer as best as I can:
Well, you don't necessarily "need" an aperture in a projection lens, but in certain cases / applications it has an advantage.
I have this Kindermann 2.4/90 MC-B lens (with aperture), made by Docter Optics. For my Kindermann silent 2500 (250W) projector.
This lens is already very good at open aperture, and stopped down to f4 or f5.6 it has really excellent quality.
Stopped down you not only have outstanding image quality, but also more depth-of-field, which improves overall image quality in those cases when your slide mounts don't offer very good "Planlage", flatness of field (which is often the case with cheaper slide mounts).

The downside is of course that the projected image on the screen will be visibly darker when the lens is stopped down.
But that can be acceptable (means the image on the screen will be bright enough in most cases) if
- you use the lens with a 250W projector (and not with a 150W projector)
- when the projected image has a max. width of 1.5 meters (= normal image size in a living room projection)
- when you have a very bright screen, e.g. a high-reflective one with tiny glass-beads.

I had used the Kinderman silent 2500 with this lens with a Da-Lite Picture King screen with the outstanding High-Power surface (probably the best slide projection screen ever made). In this combination the brightness on the screen stopped down with the MC-B lens was acceptable.
But later I added to my projection set-up the Leica Pradovit PC projector with the Leica Super-Colorplan lens. And using the Diaspeed HT-XYZ slide mounts which offer optimal Planlage, flatness of field. Therefore no need anymore for a stopped down lens. This Leica set-up is now for many years my main set-up for 35mm projection. The Kindermann with the MC-B lens is used sometimes for older transparencies in sub-optimal mounts.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Thanks!
Are you aware of any good ~60mm projection lens - neat to have large image in smaller rooms.

Ivo, with the standard 90mm projection lenses you normally don't have any problems to project to a screen size of 1.5 meters width. Which is possible even in relatively small living rooms (I am doing that regularly).
And because of that I have never used a 60mm lens by myself, I never needed it. Photographer friends using projection also never used one.
Therefore I cannot give you advice from own tests and experiences.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[miha]

Thank again Henning. As you mentioned, and as we know, an f/2,5 lens that performs optimally wide open is certainly possible (such as the Leica (Super) Colorplan, among others), so stopping down feels like too much of a compromise. My Pradovit is a 250W projector, and I prefer using it at full power for larger projections. On the other hand, when projecting smaller images, the slide flatness and lens quality become progressively less important.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Ivo, with the standard 90mm projection lenses you normally don't have any problems to project to a screen size of 1.5 meters width. Which is possible even in relatively small living rooms (I am doing that regularly).

Then there are really small rooms - like filling 1.75m screen from 3m distance and 90mm would produce half of that

 

[simplejoy]

Thanks Miha.
Just an addition from my side, as I have also tested projection lenses:
From my results I can put the Leica Super-Colorplan and the Zeiss P-Sonnar on a higher ranking compared to the results in the test you have linked.
And my assessment is confirmed by several other tests done and published in Germany (which has been the country in which slide projection has been most popular).
Based on my and these other published tests I can give the following recommendations for different projector brands:

Braun Paximat Multimag series:
Best lenses: Braun Ultralit PL 2.4/90 and Braun Ultralit 2.8/85 MC-B (with aperture).

Rollei Rolleivision twin series (35mm):
Best lens: Rollei AV-Apogon 2.4/90.

Rollei Rolleivision 66 medium format projectors:
Best lenses: Schneider AV-Xenotar 2.8/150 and Rollei AV-Apogon 2.8/120.

Best regards,
Henning

Hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple of tangentially related question, given that you've tested all these lenses:

1.) From my own observations I would say that the AV-Apogon 90 mm f/2.4 HFT is a 4 elements in 4 groups (Sonnar or Ernostar variant) optical design. Can you confirm that? Do you know if there are any offical drawings of this design?
2.) It's said to have been made by Schneider Kreuznach and that it is identical to the AV-Xenotar 90 mm f/2.4, apart from the coating and perhaps some light corrections (the latter is unconfirmed).
3.) There's also an AV-Xenotar 90 mm f/2.4-8 HFT (with variable aperture) which I own. I suspect that it is completely identical in terms of optics, but it has a metal barrel. Do you know if a Rollei version of that one exists as well?
4.) The Braun Ultralit PL 90 mm f/2.4 seem quite similar (though not identical) in terms of construction as well. It is a confirmed 4/4 design. I wonder who made it... because as far as I know Ultralit lenses were made by a couple of different manufacturers. Could it have been made by ISCO? Or was it made by Staeble, Docter? Or did Braun have their own lens manufacturing capabilities? (I seem to recall there were two German Braun companies involved in the photography sphere, so I'm always confused).
5.) Is the Kindermann MC-B (made by Doctar) also a 4 elements in 4 groups design? And was it sold with any other name/labeling as well?

Sorry for the vast number of questions all at once... I really hope you can help me with some of these. Thanks a lot!

 

[Henning Serger]

Hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple of tangentially related question, given that you've tested all these lenses:

1.) From my own observations I would say that the AV-Apogon 90 mm f/2.4 HFT is a 4 elements in 4 groups (Sonnar or Ernostar variant) optical design. Can you confirm that? Do you know if there are any offical drawings of this design?
2.) It's said to have been made by Schneider Kreuznach and that it is identical to the AV-Xenotar 90 mm f/2.4, apart from the coating and perhaps some light corrections (the latter is unconfirmed).

I don't have any drawings of the lens design of this lens. Due to my Rollei literature Schneider-Kreuznach made indeed the AV-Xenotar 2.4/90. It is very likely that the AV-Apogon is (almost) identical. Anyway, it is an excellent lens.

3.) There's also an AV-Xenotar 90 mm f/2.4-8 HFT (with variable aperture) which I own. I suspect that it is completely identical in terms of optics, but it has a metal barrel. Do you know if a Rollei version of that one exists as well?

AFAIK that is the only existing version. Never seen or heard of another one.

4.) The Braun Ultralit PL 90 mm f/2.4 seem quite similar (though not identical) in terms of construction as well. It is a confirmed 4/4 design. I wonder who made it... because as far as I know Ultralit lenses were made by a couple of different manufacturers. Could it have been made by ISCO? Or was it made by Staeble, Docter?

German lens manufacturers ISCO or Docter-Optics are the most likely sources. They were very active in that market.

Or did Braun have their own lens manufacturing capabilities?

No, AFAIK they had not, and had lens manufacturers with lots of experience in projection lens manufacturing like ISCO or Docter-Optics as suppliers.

5.) Is the Kindermann MC-B (made by Doctar) also a 4 elements in 4 groups design? And was it sold with any other name/labeling as well?

Yes, it is a 4-element design. I have this lens for my Kindermann Silent 2500, and it is really excellent. AFAIK it was only sold with Kindermann, I have never seen it in connection with any other projection manufacturer.

Sorry for the vast number of questions all at once... I really hope you can help me with some of these. Thanks a lot!

No problem at all.
I hope my answers are helpful for you.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[simplejoy]

I don't have any drawings of the lens design of this lens. Due to my Rollei literature Schneider-Kreuznach made indeed the AV-Xenotar 2.4/90. It is very likely that the AV-Apogon is (almost) identical. Anyway, it is an excellent lens.



AFAIK that is the only existing version. Never seen or heard of another one.



German lens manufacturers ISCO or Docter-Optics are the most likely sources. They were very active in that market.



No, AFAIK they had not, and had lens manufacturers with lots of experience in projection lens manufacturing like ISCO or Docter-Optics as suppliers.



Yes, it is a 4-element design. I have this lens for my Kindermann Silent 2500, and it is really excellent. AFAIK it was only sold with Kindermann, I have never seen it in connection with any other projection manufacturer.



No problem at all.
I hope my answers are helpful for you.

Best regards,
Henning

Thank you so much for all the answers - that's a lot of help!

I've done quite a bit of research on ISCO during the last year, because I've written an article about their Kiptar (cine projection) lens series and similar ones. It certainly looks like slide projection was an important part of their portfolio as well (Projar, S-Proiar, Cinelux-AV, Ultra-AV & the PC variants + various lenses with Rollei & Meridian labels...) but unfortuntely they didn't give serial numbers to these.

I've been very surpised by the quality of the Ultralit PL 90 mm f/2.4. The Ultralit B-MC 85 mm f/2.8 however is not identical in terms of design, but a three element lens instead (there's even a drawing from that). I think whoever made it (as you've said likely ISCO or Docter-Optics) also made the reflecta Agomar 90 mm f/2.8. They share some parts in the aperture mechanism which look completely identical, so I would be surprised if it's not by the same manufacturer. I have no idea if the possible manufacturers for reflecta labeled lenses is any different.... Braun lenses were also made by Staeble and Enna, but I'm not sure about the timeline and if any of those could have worked out with the Ultralit PL series at all.

 

[MattKing]

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