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Slavich Grade 4 or Paper as nice for Lith

Bob Carnie

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Hi Folks

Doing some Art 300 lith printing this week, but I have another project that I think this Russian paper would work really well but am perplexed as to where to purchase it.

If not available any good recommendations on a nice lith paper matt surface.
 

Peter Schrager

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laser innovations...they do runs of slavich
I tihink B+H carries it also but may not have in stock
 
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Bob Carnie

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No luck with laser inovations their office number is not working and the group in Tennesse do not stock paper- I will give B&H a try
 

WHof

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Bob - Adorama lists Slavich as in stock.

What are you doing to make Art 300 lith well? I've tried it but my results are very subtle and not 'lithy' enough. I'm thinkin of trying it 2nd pass.
 

Paul Howell

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I buy Salvich from B&H, who has it sent from Galaxy withing a few weeks. I dont use matt but I like grade 2 and 3 glossy.
 

WHof

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Paul - do you use Bromportrait or Unibrom (or both)? What do you develop it in?
 

Paul Howell

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I have used both, had some Bromportrait silk which I dont think is available. I don't do lith, my usual is Unibrom glossy grades 2 and 3, i develop in Dektol 1:2 or Ultrafine 1:1 for 3mints under red safe light. Standard toning. I have both single wt which I mount and double wt. Last I looked B&H listed RC, have not tired, happy with Forma and Ultrafine but might order 25 sheets to how well it stacks up to Salvich FB. Overall Unibrom reminds me of old Agfa Brovia. Make sure you dry your test strips, I use a microwave to speed up the process.

So my work flow

under red safe light

Dektol 1:2 3mints

15 to 30 seconds stop bath

Single Wt standard Kodak fix 2.5 first fix 2.5 second fix

Double wt standard Kodak fix 5 mint first fix, 5 mint second fix

wash 2 mint

Perma Wash 2 mint

30 mint wash in drum washer or 1 hour archival washer

The toning if desired. I don't tone every print.

Dry on screens then mount or archive or Ferrotype for glossy and mount.

I will be printing on Salvich 11X14 in the next few weeks.
 

Larry Bullis

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Bob, I think that the above suggestion of "laser innovations" got it mixed it up a bit - understandable, for sure.

Write to Bernadette at "postmaster@laserreflections.com". You can search for Laser Reflections and will find their website. Odd, but I just tried to copy the URL and it didn't work, but you can get there through a search.

I just got my shipment of Slavich paper from her a couple of weeks ago. They are in Poulsbo WA. Very interesting people. I've been there since I live fairly close and hang out at a winery not far from there. It's a state of the art holography studio. What Ron does is amazing. life-sized head and shoulders portraits in 3d. Worth a trip to the end of nowhere to see it.

Bernadette orders, I think, 2x/year, and I'm not sure she will be able to get #4 for you, but I know she will knock herself out trying. She managed to get me both #2 and #3 this time, but often has trouble getting #2.

I hope you order from them because I want them to keep getting it, and it helps to have more interest. They do business with Slavich, because Slavich makes materials for holography. The paper is not the company's main focus, I think. She has clients even in South America for the stuff. It's very good paper. I love the Unibrom.

Good luck and let me know how it goes for you with this. I'm definitely invested... great paper.

Larry
 
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Bob Carnie

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I have had nothing but issues trying to get Slavich - nuff said I need a nice Matt paper 16 x20 that liths well that I can purchase ... Foma sounds the route could someone chime in on the number
that follows 131 123 132 ect?

Bobby has a bunch of prints to make and some current help would be appreciated.... Please note Matt Paper only in 16 x20 or 12 x16 will do , I need about 200sheets.
 

Lachlan Young

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You want the ones that end in '2' - they're not a dead smooth matt like Ilford etc, but more like a very smooth matte lustre. Will take pencil etc to sign if needed - usually! 131 is more a standard air dried gloss, 133 a lustre finish.

132 has a hint of warmth, 532 is more like a 'cream'/ unbrightened white base. Both are nice papers, though have largely stuck to conventional (non-lith) stuff with them, barring some adventures with hypo-alum & ferricyanide... like most WT's they're highly susceptible to the usual toners etc - obviously can't speak to post-lith toning.

532 & 132 are beautiful generally, but they are slow for conventional printing even with an MG500 head & optimal aperture.

542 may be off the market right now, but I don't think the current batch had been brought back to lithability? Odd stuff, very warm (tobacco-y yellow colour), surface like 532. Printed a fair bit of stuff on it for a job - much improved if you can trim off/ hide the ugly paper rebate afterwards...

123 might be back as a lith-only paper - never used it for that, but it's more of a creamy/ low sheen lustre from what I remember from when I used some.

Be warned that 12x16 is the largest size Foma does in 50s - 16x20 & 20x24 are 10s only...

Hope this helps somewhat!
 
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Bob Carnie

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I am wondering if Fomatone MG 132 12 x16 or classic is a paper others have used??
 

adelorenzo

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Hi Bob,

I'm using both the 132 and 532 for lith with what I consider to be good results. I've gotten the 12x16 size through Argentix I'm pretty sure he can get anything they sell.

I don't have a lot of experience with differrent papers but the Fomatone seems to be a pretty straightforward paper for lith. I'm overexposing 2-3 stops and using Moersch Easy Lith 1:1:50, my developing times at 20 degrees C are approx 5-7 mins.

Regards,
Anthony
 

adelorenzo

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Bob --

I should also add that as a fairly new lith printer I watched have watched your videos on lith printing and toning a number of times and found them really helpful. Thanks for sharing your expertise!

Regards,
Anthony
 
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Bob Carnie

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Hi Anthony

I am just about to place my order with Jacques but I would like to know the following if you don't mind.

Are both papers matt ??? which one is more dead flat

Which paper is more neutral without toning 132 or 532 ...

simple as that

thanks

Bob
 

Lachlan Young

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Just dug some 532 out to compare the base tint... Base colour-wise, 532 is definitely the most neutral - barely off white, more an unbrightened white. It's probably the least shiny of the 2, but don't have any 132 immediately to hand, only 133 lustre.

They're all the same emulsion, so it should only be the base tint & surface finish that differ.
 
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adelorenzo

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I'll try to answer this question later tonight when I'm home, I'll pull out some prints and compare them.
 

adelorenzo

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Bob Carnie said:
I am just about to place my order with Jacques but I would like to know the following if you don't mind.

Are both papers matt ??? which one is more dead flat

Which paper is more neutral without toning 132 or 532 ...
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

I pulled out some prints tonight to look at and here is what I can tell you about 132 and 532.

These are definitely not a really flat matt paper. A print on Ilford Matt Fiber paper is way flatter. I've got some prints made on Ilford Semi-Matt Warmtone Fiber and that's very close to the same finish as the Foma 132/532.

I believe both emulsions are the same just different paper bases. With a straight print the look is very similar in tone to the Ilford Warmtone. With lith I get really peachy tones from this paper. In selenium it goes quickly to reds and beyond that to purples. Sepia toning gives the usual brown tones.

In terms of the bases, they are both supposed to be a cream or ivory tinted base. I've made lith prints on both papers and honestly looking at them now I can't tell you which is which. Also, my prints have a neutral white base with a hint of warmth but no real tint per se. This is interesting because I have a print from someone else on Fomatone 132 and it has a definite tint to the paper base. My best guess is that this is due to using Ilford Rapid Fixer. I just pulled a strip of undeveloped paper from the box and it had a strong base color. I threw it in rapid fixer and it lost most of that color. Next time print with this paper I may try a plain hypo fixer and see if the base color stays.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Anthony
 

Lachlan Young

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I'd be wary about plain hypo - Fomatone has enough iodide in it to need a bit longer in the fix than Ilford paper - test to be sure. The base tint does not seem affected by fix to me at least - & I'm using rapid fix - wash time on the other hand does alter it, even the intensely tinted 542 begins to tone down after an hour or two.

Having looked again, there's a touch more sheen than 24k semi matte Ilford, but not as much as Art300 - in that sector though.
 
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Bob Carnie

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Just heard back from Bernadette - I can get product if I order now in two months- Adorama cannot sell it in USA- B&H has no stock..

Things are not looking to bright for me to use this paper
 

adelorenzo

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I'm a little bit puzzled about this, as all my prints on this paper have basically no base tint whatsoever. I can't see any difference between them and Ilford Warmtone paper. The base definitely has a strong tint when it comes out of the box.

I've got a batch of TF2 fixer mixed up so maybe I'll try that with this paper. The base bleached really quickly in Ilford Rapid Fixer with my tests last night. I'm wondering if an alkaline fixer will make a difference.
 

adelorenzo

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So based on those codes the 132 and 532 should have an identical surface and base tint but a different type of paper base. I was looking under a loupe last night but I couldn't seem to spot any differences between the two types of paper.

Any idea what the "nature" base is supposed to be?
 

John Wiegerink

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I got my Slavich paper through B&H and it took about a week to get it. I just went to their site and they still list it. When you order this you must know that you can't cancel the order(probably since it's "drop-shipped"). I don't lith, but found it to be a very good printing paper on it's own.
 
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Bob Carnie

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Hi John

I think the sizes I wanted were not available and that forced the 2 month wait.

We tried this with another client a few months ago and my client paid for the slavich paper , but B&H could not meet the shipping date as promised, we then had to switch to
Ilford Art 300.

I cannot work as a printmaker for others like this , I find I am spending hours of time trying to find product ...
 

Mike Crawford

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Lachlan Young said:
123 might be back as a lith-only paper - never used it for that, but it's more of a creamy/ low sheen lustre from what I remember from when I used some.

Be warned that 12x16 is the largest size Foma does in 50s - 16x20 & 20x24 are 10s only...
Click to expand...

Hi Bob

Have you tried Fomabrom Variant 123? Does give a good lith result and has a soft textured base with a slight sheen. Bit like the old Agfa MCC Semi Matte surface.

I thought it was discontinued, but I think there are large quantities still about. Was prone to base fogging so not so great for conventional printing, but no such problems with lith. Do you know Martin Reed who used to own Silverprint? He's th UK importer for Foma. As Lachlan said, there is talk about producing it again but marketed as a lith paper. Contrasty example attached.
 

Mike Crawford

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Meant to say, if it was the right paper for you, Martin might have an idea about long term availability.
 
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