Sizing paper with albumin

[Jeremy]

I dont think Thomas is planning to print in albumen. He is most likely to try an use a suggestion given at APIS to size the paper with albumen or collodion prior to coating to keep the "wet" look pt/pd prints have and minimize dry down. A wet pt/pd print is a thing of beauty, but dry down takes it's toll and unfortunatelly it is a weird effect. The highlights get darker but the dark tones get lighter. I once measured the Dmax of a wet print and it was 1.85, I then measured the same tone dry and it was 1.3, this is 1 and 2/3 stops loss! I think this technique bears experimentation, if one is able to get Dmax tones of 1.85 and above without having to do double or triple exposures, I think this will be the future preferred method for many pt/pd printers.

This was said by Jorge in the gallery about one of Thomas Saurwein's prints and I wanted to know more about it w/o drawing away from discussion of the image. Can anyone give results with having done this and some pointers on how to do it?

Thomas' image: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Jorge]

Jeremy there is a discussion in the B&S web site started by norm la coe in the coffee shop forum. Terry King wrote to prepare the albumen as if one was going to make an albumen print and size the paper with this. About two years ago I tried this and did not work for me, so I mentioned this to Terry and he answered to dilute the albumen before use. I will try this, I am also going to try coating the print post printing, maybe it will work just as well without having to size before coating.

If you come up with a working solution go ahead and post it.

PS. Terry also mention sizing with collodion, but that is just too difficult IMO. I would just as soon keep the prints the way they are.

 

[Jeremy]

Thanks, Jorge, I found what you are talking about and next time I go to the grocery store I'll try to find some egg whites--if I can do it with that stuff then I'll give it a shot. It appears that Terry had trouble with it but another didn't.

Umm, how do I prepare albumen for making albumen prints? I don't know anything about that. It looks like it's time to make a trip to the library and borrow their alt process book again!

 

[Peter Schrager]

Albumen

Jeremy-go to www.alternatephotography.com; they have a pretty good how to right there.
Best,Peter

 

[Jorge]

Separate the whites from the yolk. Do this in a small tray so that you can pour the whites on another tray once you separate them. Make sure the whites have no yolk or schelazae (yep, that is what the stringy white thing is called) Once you have them separate to 500 ml of egg white add 2 ml of glacial acetic acid and 15 ml of destilled water and stir until you foam the egg whites. The more you stir them and foam them the better. Filter with a cheese cloth and put in another tray to denaturate in the refrigerator for a week.

If you want to dilute it for testing, wait until you are ready to use it to dilute it. This way you can bring the temperature of the egg whites up a little. Make sure you store the egg whites in the refrigerator until you are ready to use them.

 

[Thomassauerwein]

Also try Richard Farber "Historic photographic Processes" Pg's 45 thru 55

 

[roy]

and put in another tray to denaturate in the refrigerator for a week.QUOTE]

We have to wait a week for the next instalment ?

 

[photomc]

and put in another tray to denaturate in the refrigerator for a week.QUOTE]

We have to wait a week for the next instalment ?

I know Roy, when I first read about the process thought how did anyone ever get any prints made...those guys were dedicated. Have seen several Albumin prints and they are really nice looking prints - kinda like the ones that have small holes where the bubles were, that way you know it was an albumin print.

 

[sanking]

I know Roy, when I first read about the process thought how did anyone ever get any prints made...those guys were dedicated. Have seen several Albumin prints and they are really nice looking prints - kinda like the ones that have small holes where the bubles were, that way you know it was an albumin print.

If what you really want is high Dmax with palladium/platinum printing you might want to consider Craigh Koshyk's methods for hand coating fixed=out baryta papers. It is of course much more complicated to get a smooth coating on a fixed-out paper than on the papers we normally use of palladium and platinum printing. However, in level of difficulty I woud guess that getting good results by coating with albumin would also be very complicated.

I have experimented with this both ways, i.e. with fixed out baryta papers and with albumin sizing, and without a lot of effort I have gotten much better results with the fixed out baryta papers.

As far as I know Craig's directions are not on-line but he has a small booklet about this that I believe is for sale.

Sandy

 

[nze]

Sandy

Coating fix out paper is not as difficult as this it depend on the paper you use. I 've got great result bu using an ilford paper called ilfomar. with this paper I jst need to add 3 drops of Tween 20 to get a good coat of the platinunm , cyanotype and kallitype sensitizer. I think it should work with other process but as I 've never try I am not sure.

With this paper Idon't need to heat the paper or any other magic bullet, Just need to coat like I do with other paper let dry and expose, like I do with any other paper.
for sur ethe clearing is a little longer and it is better to avoid using platinum as it make the clearing impossible

Christian

 

[Jorge]

Well I got one up on you guys, I tried coating without fixing first. I figure if the pd replaces the silver when toning, there should not be a reason for it not to replace when coating. It worked fine, but it was hard to get the yellowish tone out.

OTOH I like the look of watercolor papers, why coat on baryta paper? better to just make a silver print and tone it in pd or pt, much easier.

 

[photomc]

Interesting Jorge, would not have thought about it, but from previous discussions about how the plt/pld replaces silver makes sense. Also, seems like I recall reading somewhere that COT320 is used to make some Bergger silver papers, just don't recall what or where I read it......may not be true. I still like COT320/Platine and sure can't see much reason to go through fixing paper, then re-coat. But then I still have a lot to learn, so may change that thought later. The albumin makes more sense on the other hand, would seem like it would be like difference between glossy and matt finish silver paper.

 

[Jorge]

Interesting Jorge, would not have thought about it, but from previous discussions about how the plt/pld replaces silver makes sense. Also, seems like I recall reading somewhere that COT320 is used to make some Bergger silver papers, just don't recall what or where I read it......may not be true. I still like COT320/Platine and sure can't see much reason to go through fixing paper, then re-coat. But then I still have a lot to learn, so may change that thought later. The albumin makes more sense on the other hand, would seem like it would be like difference between glossy and matt finish silver paper.

I let you know in a week, I have the albumen denaturating now. I am also going to try just overcoating an already made print, this might be a better solution than sizing the paper.

My purpose is not to get the maximum Dmax possible but to get a "cleaner" look that sometimes the dry down messes up.

I did not like the baryta paper look, my thought was why go to the trouble of making a pt/pd print that is going to look like a toned silver print? Anyhow, to each his own, give it a try you might like it.

 

[nze]

Jorge

I also prefer to use Watercolor paper and handmade paper to print my platinum palladium. But It was funny to see how much it increase the detail in a platinum print to coat on a fiber based paper. I just some of my underwood scene on Cot320 and Baryted paper and I should admit that working on COt Make me loose a lot in the fine detail , even if I use a spot source and a vacuum printer.

Platinum on fine art paper has is own limit in details. But My goal in platinum is not for the detail but the tone.

 

[sanking]

Sandy

Coating fix out paper is not as difficult as this it depend on the paper you use. I 've got great result bu using an ilford paper called ilfomar. with this paper I jst need to add 3 drops of Tween 20 to get a good coat of the platinunm , cyanotype and kallitype sensitizer. I think it should work with other process but as I 've never try I am not sure.

With this paper Idon't need to heat the paper or any other magic bullet, Just need to coat like I do with other paper let dry and expose, like I do with any other paper.
for sur ethe clearing is a little longer and it is better to avoid using platinum as it make the clearing impossible

Christian

What kind of paper is Ilfomar? I don't have any of it and thought I would try something similar.

Sandy

 

[Peter Schrager]

Ilfomar

Sandy-I believe Ilfomar was one of the GREAT papers that was made in the sixties. Don't hold me to the date. I have no idea where Christian found. I have some Haloid contact paper from 1952 I would be willing to send you gratis if you want to try the above procedure. Paper still works fine. PM me.
Best, Peter Schrager

 

[nze]

Hi Peters and Sandy

Peters is trus it is an oldilford Paper made mostly for the french market. It was a paper dedicated to the portrait, semi matt surface and fixed graded.

I also tryed some Bergger paper before they add the silver in it, just baryted paper . But glossy or mat the coating wasn't easy. I keep this paer for carbon printing.

With ilfomar the coating is really easy just need to take out the excess of solution.

To get this paper I contact all the portrait photographer near my home. They also have great royal kodura paper.

 

[photomc]

Was wondering if coating with albumen would have any impact on the archival properties of a plt/pld print? I realize that there are many albumen prints that are well over 100 years old (saw some yesterday), but looking at them got me to wondering what impact either pre or post coating with albumen would be. Are the proteins altered to a more stable state by the chemicals in the process?

One other question, what would be the difference between coating, post exposure, with albumen and waxing with one of the fine art wax?

As always, Thanks in advance.

 

[Jorge]

Was wondering if coating with albumen would have any impact on the archival properties of a plt/pld print? I realize that there are many albumen prints that are well over 100 years old (saw some yesterday), but looking at them got me to wondering what impact either pre or post coating with albumen would be. Are the proteins altered to a more stable state by the chemicals in the process?

One other question, what would be the difference between coating, post exposure, with albumen and waxing with one of the fine art wax?

As always, Thanks in advance.

I tried the wax thing and did not work worth a damn. I saw little change in the print properties.

Albumen has great keeping properties if processed correctly, remember gelatin is nothing more than another organic material. The problem can be yellowing and the cracking, both of which are avoided by the addition of acetic acid and plenty of stirring...

 

[photomc]

I tried the wax thing and did not work worth a damn. I saw little change in the print properties.

Albumen has great keeping properties if processed correctly, remember gelatin is nothing more than another organic material. The problem can be yellowing and the cracking, both of which are avoided by the addition of acetic acid and plenty of stirring...

Well, that makes sense and I knew we had albumen prints that have lasted a long time. Wonder if egg albumen is any better than say bovine or pork. I know they are made from different components...will have to give it try. Maybe find some of the powered albumen they sell at some of the scientific web sites, if they sell it in small enough quantities.

 

[Jorge]

Well, that makes sense and I knew we had albumen prints that have lasted a long time. Wonder if egg albumen is any better than say bovine or pork. I know they are made from different components...will have to give it try. Maybe find some of the powered albumen they sell at some of the scientific web sites, if they sell it in small enough quantities.

Some people in the B&S forum mentioned the powdered egg whites were great since the denaturation time was less than doing the egg white separation from eggs and stirring to brak up the long chain molecules. As I said I am working on an albumen batch right now, if it works fine maybe you and I can buy the dried albumen in a bigger batch, give me another 5 days and I will let you know what kind of results it gives.

 

[roy]

Some people in the B&S forum mentioned the powdered egg whites were great since the denaturation time was less than doing the egg white separation from eggs

I made an albumen print during a workshop with Terry King and I do not recall keeping the egg white for as long as a week. Is it necessary to let it mature for that length of time ?

 

[Jorge]

I made an albumen print during a workshop with Terry King and I do not recall keeping the egg white for as long as a week. Is it necessary to let it mature for that length of time ?

To tell you the truth I dont know. Terry posted that one should prepare the albumen as one should for albumen printing and most of the books I have read on it mention at least a week but I dont know for sure that this is absolutely necessary. It might not be.

 

[cjarvis]

I've printed with albumen that's been in my fridge for over a year. Of course I've also used it the day after I made it. Denaturing egg whites with acetic acid is fast...a week is plenty of time.

And if it's preserved with sodium citrate, it should keep well with little mold formation even after several months. Any mold that does form may be easily strained off. When I make albumen I use a combination of sodium or potassium chloride (I prefer the latter) and sodium citrate just for preservation.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The reason that using fixed out paper works is due to the fact that the baryta layer acts as a barrier, and that there is a gelatin overcoat (size) on it.

You may want to consider using just a plain gelatin size rather than going to the trouble of using albumen, unless it imparts a special 'look' or 'feel' to your work.

PE