Sistan/Ag-Stab destroyed most of my portfolio

Gerald C Koch · Oct 31, 2014

Since there was period of time between making of the print and its treatment with Sistan there might have already been damage done before the treatment. Remember this is not the typical usage for this product. We certainly need more information and shouldn't start to panic.

MartinP · Oct 31, 2014

I have only used Sistan and AG-Stab (the same thing, supposedly) on fresh prints so I don't have a direct comparison to give unfortunately.

The streaks could perhaps be the effect described when Sistan dries on a print (I haven't seen that either) but the discolouration sounds odd. Might there have a been a few prints that were already unnoticeably affected by an external "something", that could explain the different results? Good luck

Photo Engineer · Oct 31, 2014

I suggest, as a trial, bleaching in a ferricyanide / bromide rehal bleach, a good wash and then redevelop. So: wash, bleach, wash, develop, stop, fix, wash.

Just a trial starting point.

PE

pentaxuser · Oct 31, 2014

Polyglot, have you contacted the maker of Sistan? Unfortunately and unlike Ilford it is unlikely that it will pick up a potential problem from APUG as only Ilford seems to keep a watching brief here.

pentaxuser

polyglot · Oct 31, 2014

PE: any suggestions where to buy such a bleach? Specific product names?

pentaxuser: I haven't contacted anyone yet because I suspect the problem is how I used it, not any particular product defect. I think the conclusion here is "be super f***ing careful that you wipe every last drop off".

tkamiya · Oct 31, 2014

That's horrible!

I don't think AgSTAB is in market anymore. Last time I looked, it wasn't sold by anyone, at least in US. If that is the case, I don't think the manufacture will even care to troubleshoot.

tkamiya · Oct 31, 2014

I placed my print on glass plate and used squeezie (sp) to remove every drop of it before drying.

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 31, 2014

I've only used Sistan on film (haven't tried other branded versions) and haven't had any problems in that application.

Photo Engineer · Oct 31, 2014

polyglot said:
PE: any suggestions where to buy such a bleach? Specific product names?

This rehal bleach is a do it yourself bleach. It is potassium ferricyanide and sodium or potassium bromide. There are formulas here on APUG and also, the Kodak "How To" books probably has one. Sorry I can't be more specific.

PE

Arklatexian · Nov 1, 2014

tkamiya said:
That's horrible!

I don't think AgSTAB is in market anymore. Last time I looked, it wasn't sold by anyone, at least in US. If that is the case, I don't think the manufacture will even care to troubleshoot.

OK, I'll bite. What is this AgSTAB, etc? I have been in and around darkrooms for 2 generations or longer and haver seen nor used it. Is it a "water saver"? From what I have read in this thread it is used make prints archival. Looks to me like proper fixing, washing, etc. will yield 200 year old prints. Is there something that I have missed? I do hope that the bleach and redevelopment that PE suggested works.....Regards

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 1, 2014

Sistan is a preservative consisting of a potassium thiocyanate toner that does not produce a color change, plus a wetting agent. You can use it in place of Photo-Flo, and it will have a preservative effect as well as preventing drying spots. The recommended dilution on the bottle I have is 25ml/l (1:40), though as I recall, when it was first released, the recommended dilution was 1:20. If I remember correctly, earlier users of the 1:20 dilution had problems with the wetting agent leaving too much residue on the film/paper, and 1:40 was sufficient for protective toning, so eventually Agfa adopted this recommendation.

Ctein recommended it many years ago for preventing silvering out of RC print. One possibility is that AgStab isn't really the same as Sistan, and another is that today's RC papers are significantly different from those of the past, and yet another is that, if it is really the same as Sistan, it should be used at 1:40 rather than 1:20. I haven't made RC prints for ages, so I'm not sure if I've used it for that purpose, but I always use it on film and have for years. Given how dilute the working solution is, and the fact that it lasts indefinitely and you can use it until the last drop is gone, I suspect my last liter of Sistan stock should be around for a good long time, before I need to consider another product.

LikeAPolaroid · Nov 1, 2014

polyglot said:
Well, here's an example, and probably one of the worst. Some of them are just a 4mm spot in the corner. I think it's clear that I probably didn't squeegee the prints well enough and that a little liquid has dried onto the surface.

Dilution was as directed (1+20) and they were properly dried before going into an archive box.

I will try re-development in the hope that the silver can be brought back but I suspect not easily - the whole point of this stuff is to tightly bind free silver ions into a very stable salt. If anyone (PE?) can suggest a chemical that will free the ions up for the developer to reduce them to metal, I'd very much like to hear about it.

If you used Sistan months later and you already had bronzing then I believe it's a washing issue. Sistan just toned the print but if there was unstable unwashed fixer compound somewhere it could do nothing.

AgX · Nov 1, 2014

polyglot said:
Well, here's an example, and probably one of the worst. Some of them are just a 4mm spot in the corner. I think it's clear that I probably didn't squeegee the prints well enough and that a little liquid has dried onto the surface.

Seen how few solution is actually soaked by the emulsion compared to the volume of droplets/streaks may be left on the paper if not wiped, at least part of the answer should be in here.

chrisaisenbrey · Nov 1, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
This rehal bleach is a do it yourself bleach. It is potassium ferricyanide and sodium or potassium bromide. There are formulas here on APUG and also, the Kodak "How To" books probably has one. Sorry I can't be more specific.

PE

Wolfgang Moersch is offering a bleach concentrate:

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/toner/65/bleicher/lang:en

I guess Freestyle is his reseller in the US

There is also some description in the context of toning:

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/artikel/anleitungen/113

Doremus Scudder · Nov 1, 2014

Polyglot,

Here's my usual recipe for a ferricyanide/bromide rehalogenating bleach:

15g potassium ferricyanide
15g potassium bromide
1 liter of water

I'm not sure what the capacity will be on this, so you'll have to keep an eye on it. You can use a stronger solution if this one wears out too soon. I have 500ml of this that I use for bleach/redevelop of film and it's been going fine for 10 4x5 sheets or so over the last years. I don't use it very often. (I use bleach/redevelop in a staining developer to add contrast to negatives from time to time.)

Keep in mind that when using this, it will turn all of the elemental silver in a print/film into silver bromide, which makes the entire silver image disappear. The entire procedure can be done with the lights on.

1. Pre-soak the print
1A. Wash well if you suspect insufficient washing is part of the problem (in your case, I certainly would!)
2. Treat in the rehalogenating bleach until the image completely disappears (there may be a "ghost image" so give enough time to ensure complete rehalogenation, too long won't hurt).
2A. PE recommended a wash here, so it's probably a good idea. However, when I use this method on film, I usually just transfer the print to the developer after a minute rinse. Maybe you need to make sure all the bromide/ferri is washed out before re-developing.
3. Redevelop in your favorite developer. The image will come up just as it usually does, but this time you'll be able to see it happen with the lights on! Develop to completion and then some to ensure that all the silver bromide is redeveloped.
4. Fix (to get any stray silver compounds out of the emulsion)
5. Wash.

Let's hope this will fix your problem. Keep in mind that you will be altering the characteristics of the paper emulsion when doing this, so the end result may be slightly different in image tone/toning properties, etc.

I've been using Sistan and the Adolux Adostab (Sistan clone) for some years now and have had no such problems. I'll be examining my prints when I get back to my print storage this summer, however, just to be sure.

If you have any prints that you have treated and which are not exhibiting problems, but which you suspect you did not squeegee well, I would refix and wash them well just to be safe. Next time you treat in Sistan, make sure you squeegee well on both sides!

Best,

Doremus

Photo Engineer · Nov 1, 2014

You should not carry the bleach into the developer. You risk problems.

PE

polyglot · Nov 1, 2014

LikeAPolaroid: these were all prints in excellent (not stained, faded, bronzed, mirrored or in any way degraded) condition; they were dark-stored in archive boxes. Some of them were on their way to frames so the Sistan was an attempt to protect them from future bronzing. The ones that were bronzed already I have left as-is.

Thanks for the bleach recipes. Someone local to me noticed this thread and has offered me some rehal bleach so I'll be taking him up on that (thanks Steve!)

Marco Buonocore · Nov 2, 2014

Hi Polyglot,

Sorry to hear about the loss of your prints. It must be very frustrating.

Could you take the time to explain your full process? Including how you dried the prints? It might help shed light on the issue.

How long were the prints stored in the boxes for? I use Sistan occasionally and have yet to see any problems like you have experienced. I would like to replicate your process and see if staining occurs.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 2, 2014

I'm very sorry for your lossbut never heard of a similar experience with Sistan.Are you sureyou followed the manufacturer's process recommendation?How did you apply it? time,temp,concentration,washing??with that experience ,sulphide toningseems to remain the safest amd most protective archival protection for RC prints

polyglot · Nov 3, 2014

Marco Buonocore said:
Hi Polyglot,

Sorry to hear about the loss of your prints. It must be very frustrating.

Could you take the time to explain your full process? Including how you dried the prints? It might help shed light on the issue.

How long were the prints stored in the boxes for? I use Sistan occasionally and have yet to see any problems like you have experienced. I would like to replicate your process and see if staining occurs.

My process was:
- expose
- 2:00 develop in Multigrade 1+7ish in Jobo at 25C
- 0:30 stop (2% acetic) in Jobo at 25C
- 1:00 fix in 1+4 Rapid Fixer, Jobo at 25C
- 4:00 wash, Jobo at 25C, 6 changes of water
- quick splash of water on both sides of print under a tap (I don't trust the smooth Jobo drums to wash the back of the print well)
- slap print on bathroom mirror, wipe excess water off with hand and wait until basically-dry (back still damp)
- lay print flat on a cloth overnight to become totally dry
- pin to wall and/or put in archive box for between 0.25 and 5 years (no visible degradation, prints look great unless framed)
- treat in Sistan for about 2:00 at 1+20 dilution, room temp in a big plastic bucket outdoors
- wipe excess Sistan off with hands
- dry in the shade (no visible ill effects at this point)
- put in archive box for 2mo
- panic!

There seems to be no correlation between damage to the prints and age of the print in storage, nor the brand of paper (I have Foma, Kentmere, Ilford and Adox).

Ralph: as per my previous post, I think the problem is with insufficient squeegeeing of the Sistan because the shape of the damage seems to correlate with the shapes that drops or dribbles of Sistan would have taken after I wiped the prints off. It does concern me though that Sistan-as-absorbed-by-gelatin is OK/beneficial but a dribble on top of that is destructive.

AgX · Nov 3, 2014

polyglot said:
It seems to correlate with the shapes that drops or dribbles of Sistan would have taken after I wiped the prints off. It does concern me though that Sistan-as-absorbed-by-gelatin is OK/beneficial but a dribble on top of that is destructive.

As I indicated above, put the volume absorberd into relation with the volume of resting droplets, and thus the finall amount of substance ending in/on the emulsion.

MartinP · Nov 3, 2014

I have used both Sistan and AG-Stab previously, for fresh prints, but I recall that the time was mentioned as being strictly one minute -- was that at a dilution of 1:10 perhaps? (I'm not in the same place as my photo notebook and can't remember the details).

After washing and the Sistan / AG-Stab bath, I hung the RC prints up vertically to dry with small clothes-pegs (for larger prints) or put them vertically in a drying rack (like a toast-rack, but bigger). In each case, prior to air-drying, I got every drop of liquid off both sides by means of a very absorbent 'photographic' sponge. I have been using the same ones for years and don't know the name, but the point is that the prints were almost surface-dry before I hung them up or put them in the rack.

Unfortunately, it seems likely that the drips and drops left on Polyglots prints caused the problem, as warned against in the instruction sheet. I suppose that keeping the drying prints vertical would also help with avoiding liquid on the surface. Commiserations with finding the results of the problem in this way. The mechanism by which the bleaching(?) comes about might be interesting to understand. Presumably leaving a print in the solution for a couple of hours, being equivalent to drying time for a pool of liquid on the print, would cause the same effect a few months later.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 3, 2014

polyglot said:
And every single one of my 16x20s was badly affected. The ones exposed to air (top of a pile or otherwise exposed) have strong sulfurous-looking yellowing on them too.

are they stored close to an ozone source,copier,laserprinter?:confused:

RalphLambrecht · Nov 3, 2014

polyglot said:
No toning, just develop, stop, fix, rinse. Sistan was done months/years later to the dried prints.

At least I have all my darkroom notes and can reproduce these all pretty quickly in theory.

(there's a reason cliveh is on my ignore list; if you don't quote him then I won't need to see whatever bullshit he's posted this time)

I have always used it directly after washing as a final processing stepeven if toning was involved.

thefizz · Nov 3, 2014

I have used Sistan/Ag-Stab for almost ten years on prints and films without any problems. After a one minute treatment in Sistan I simply hang the prints to dry and never wipe it off the surface or back of the prints.

Peter

Sistan/Ag-Stab destroyed most of my portfolio

Gerald C Koch

MartinP

Photo Engineer

pentaxuser

polyglot

tkamiya

tkamiya

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Photo Engineer

Arklatexian

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

LikeAPolaroid

AgX

chrisaisenbrey

Doremus Scudder

Photo Engineer

polyglot

Marco Buonocore

RalphLambrecht

polyglot

AgX

MartinP

RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

thefizz

Sistan/Ag-Stab destroyed most of my portfolio

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