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k.hendrik

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"Beautiful vintage Sinar Norma technical camera equipment, complete in original Sinar case.

1 Symmar 5.6 / 240 mm
1 Symmar 5.6 / 150 mm
1 Symmar 5.6 / 135 mm
1 Super Angulon 8/90 mm
1 Super Angulon 8/65 mm

1 Polaroid 545 Land Film Holder
11 4x5 film cassettes
1 Sinar wide bellows
1 extension tube

Lenses are scratch resistant and optically excellent but should have a service for the valves and diaphragm.
"

I think i'm more or less 'ready' for one step beyond(24x36>4x4>6x6>6x7>6x9<9x12) but prices are a mess at e..y and ........ so wat is a reasonable price for this lot ? And when inspection is in order what to 'look' for ?
thanks
 
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k.hendrik

k.hendrik

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asking price is E 1100,00 so is this a 'wise' first step into LF or any other advise concerning mono rail and/or field ? thanks for reading :smile:
 

Axle

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All that for 1100 Euros? Damn that's a good prince on what one fellow Photographer says was 'the best 4x5 view camera he ever used' not to mention, all the other goodies like a huge range of solid lenses, holders, accessories. If you got the money, jump on that.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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All that for 1100 Euros? Damn that's a good prince on what one fellow Photographer says was 'the best 4x5 view camera he ever used' not to mention, all the other goodies like a huge range of solid lenses, holders, accessories. If you got the money, jump on that.

It is a pretty good deal. I typically see Norma 4x5's go for $500-700 for the camera alone. Five lenses, an extension rail, bag bellows, film holders, and other odds-n-ends, for roughly $1500 USD? That's really good. If you don't have a lot of that stuff already, it's well worth the price because you won't have to spend months shopping for all of it to assemble the kit. You might get lucky some day and find a better deal, but you'd have to shop a long time.

The most important thing to look for when inspecting it in person is the bellows. Make sure they are in good condition. With bad bellows, you won't be able to take pictures until they are fixed/replaced. If the bellows are bad, it's not the end of the world as modern replacements can be found for not too much money.

Next, I would bring a small level with you to check that the standards are plumb and square when locked at their zero points. Make sure that the controls are easy to lock, hold position when locked, especially at their extremes, and that they are easy to unlock without being loose (ie you don't have to break your knuckles trying to unlock something, but at the same time it has enough tension that when you touch it it doesn't come completely unlocked and crash down).

If movements are a little stiff, it may just need to be cleaned and lubricated (instructions on how to do this yourself can be found online). I would be more concerned if when fine focusing it sticks then lurches or skips, which would mean damaged/broken gearing. When in good condition, a Norma will feel smooth and precise, and operating it will be a pleasure.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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asking price is E 1100,00 so is this a 'wise' first step into LF or any other advise concerning mono rail and/or field ? thanks for reading :smile:

You'll never be unhappy with it if it is in good shape- it's a camera that will last a lifetime. However, it is big, and it is heavy. If you are thinking of doing a lot of landscape photography, this would NOT be my first choice. If you want a monorail, and you want to do landscape, I'd look at a Sinar F/F1. Normas are starting to appreciate in value as people are valuing them not only as a work of engineering but also as a design statement. The F or F1 are still pretty humble machines, and as such they command much lower prices.
 

Len Robertson

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Regarding the weight of a 4X5 Norma, see my post #10 here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?99497-Sinar-Norma where I give the weight of my Norma with lens as just under 8 1/2 pounds. I weighed the lens and lens board separately and get a combined weight of 3/4 pounds. So the Norma without lens and board would weight approximately 7 3/4 pounds. The weights for the Sinar F series I'm finding online are 3.3 Kg for the original F and 3.6 Kg for the F2. The original F has a reputation for weakness where the front standard clamps to the rail. Maybe this is nothing to worry about if the knob is tightened with care, but it could be an age related issue with the plastic used for the clamp. The clamp for the F2 is supposed to be much improved, but the F2 tends to be more expensive than the F. Anyway, this is a long way of explaining why I would choose a Norma, since there isn't appreciable weight difference compared with the F-series.

The possible drawback to a monorail style camera such as the Norma isn't so much weight as the bulk, the overall size. If you intend to hike much distance with your camera or you use trains or buses a lot when you go out photographing, you may find the size of a monorail to be inconvenient. However, most of the small fold-up technical camera don't allow extension rails and bellows to be added for using long focal length lenses or for macro photography. If you think you want to use wife-angle lenses a lot, or long focal lengths for portraits, I think the Norma would be preferable to most technical cameras. For wide-angle use, the Norma can be set up with just the 6 inch long extension rail, making for a more compact camera.

If you look at eBay Worldwide Sold auctions there have been some Normas sold recently at what look to be really good prices. A Norma with 3 lenses sold yesterday here in the US for approx. $725 including shipping. A couple of Normas sold there in Europe for less than $400 US, one included a lens. The European prices may be a reflection of the value of the Euro to the US dollar. I was shocked to see the exchange rate today seems to be one Euro equals $1.09 US. The last time I looked, probably more than a year ago, the Euro was more like $1.39 US. Quite a difference.

The lenses included with the outfit you are looking at likely date from the era of the Norma. So the Symmars probably aren't the later Symmar-S design. Not to say they are bad lenses, some people even prefer the "look" of the earlier lenses, but they probably aren't worth as much for resale as more modern lenses. You should probably do an eBay Sold search for Symmar and Super-Angulon to get an idea what actual selling prices in Europe are.

The real unknown is the condition of the Norma you are interested in. It would be nice if you can examine the camera in person, especially to check the bellows for pinholes.the slow speeds on the shutters, do all controls lock down tight, and is the fine focus smooth for both front and rear standards. If all the shutters need to be cleaned and lubed, that will add a fair amount to the cost of the outfit. In reality the shutters may be usable at faster shutter speeds so you can use the camera and decide which lenses you tend to use most, then have just those shutters cleaned. Definitely get an idea what a shutter C&L may cost you in your location.

I hope I don't sound overly negative. I do love my Norma, but realize it isn't the perfect camera for everyone. I wish you the best with your decision.

Len
 
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k.hendrik

k.hendrik

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Thanks! I made quite a bit lower counterbid because CLA of the lenses is about E 300,00. still thinking..
 

AgX

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The possible drawback to a monorail style camera such as the Norma isn't so much weight as the bulk, the overall size. If you intend to hike much distance with your camera or you use trains or buses a lot when you go out photographing, you may find the size of a monorail to be inconvenient. However, most of the small fold-up technical camera don't allow extension rails and bellows to be added for using long focal length lenses or for macro photography. If you think you want to use wife-angle lenses a lot, or long focal lengths for portraits, I think the Norma would be preferable to most technical cameras. For wide-angle use, the Norma can be set up with just the 6 inch long extension rail, making for a more compact camera.

But there is one 4x5 model that is designed for low transport volume: Linhof Technikardan 45
 

Nokton48

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The camera may benefit from a cleaning, it it possible to do that yourself.
The shutters may well need cleaning, as well.
Wonderful camera IMO.
 

Trond

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Also check that the steel nuts hasn't damaged the aluminium on the front and rear standard rail clamps.

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Trond
 

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Len Robertson

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The cost of 125 Euro for C&L of a shutter seems somewhat high, but I understand some goods and services in Europe and the UK cost more than here in the US. And I really don't know what US costs are for a C&L by a reputable technician.

To satisfy my curiosity I did a quick search of eBay Worldwide Sold auctions for Symmar and Super-Angulon. I didn't take time to click on descriptions of individual lenses and shutters, so it is possible the selling prices reflect shutters in need of service. As a broad generalization, Symmars (non-S version) in 135mm, 150mm, and 210mm focal lengths seems to be selling in the $100-125 US range. 65mm and 90mm (f8 versions) Super-Angulons seem to go for $150-200 US. So investing 125 Euro each into lenses that aren't especially valuable may not be what you want to do. Asking the seller to discount the price of the lenses by a certain percentage to reflect the condition of the shutter is certainly worth trying.

On the other hand, if the Norma is a nice one, you really want it, and the cost isn't a financial hardship for you, you shouldn't feel bad about buying it. Personally I am very cheap and tend to buy things only at bargain prices. But if there is some item I really want it doesn't bother me to pay normal selling prices or even overpay. The ultimate goal is to have usable equipment, not just to get good deals.

Keep in mind the option of passing up this outfit and waiting to find a Norma without lens. Then you can buy a lens or two separately. Sinar lens boards are easy to find since the boards from new series Sinars fit the Norma just fine.

Len
 

John Koehrer

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Do all of the lenses need service or just a couple? In theory cleaning them all is not a bad idea but in the
real world it's a little different.

There's also a decent bit of money in the holders, additional rail and bag bellows.
 
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