Simulating The Ortho Look With Pan Film

[Andrew O'Neill]

 

[Rick A]

Thank you Andy, excellent comparison.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Where this technique really shines is with contrastily-shaded foliage and in situations where dark shadows are lit primarily by blue light from the sky. The ortho-sensitivity opens up the shadows gratifyingly. In a pinch, an 80A or 80B color-conversion filter gives results very similar to the 44/44A. I carry a #44 or an 80A/B with me always.

Andrew, thanks for this! Too bad you didn't include an 80A in the test! I'd be interested in that comparison.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Where this technique really shines is with contrastily-shaded foliage and in situations where dark shadows are lit primarily by blue light from the sky. The ortho-sensitivity opens up the shadows gratifyingly. In a pinch, an 80A or 80B color-conversion filter gives results very similar to the 44/44A. I carry a #44 or an 80A/B with me always.

Andrew, thanks for this! Too bad you didn't include an 80A in the test! I'd be interested in that comparison.

Best,

Doremus

I agree! I should have picked up the 80A. Maybe a future video...

 

[Mark Crabtree]

#44 and 44a filters are like gold anymore. I have one, but wanted something utilitarian for large petzval lenses and bought a bunch of cyan Rosco lighting gels from B&H. Huge sheets for low prices. Maybe not what someone wants for fancy lenses on smaller formats, but this has worked well for me on 5x7 to 11x14.

Rosco publishes their absorption or transmission charts (forget which) so you can see what you need compared to a #44a. I think it takes two gels to get the full minus red effect of a 44a. I bought at least two densities of cyan, plus some nd's since I prefer to do lens cap exposures for portraits.

 

[pentaxuser]

A useful video, Andy so thanks.The wratten 44A did seem to give the darkest reds. Initially it struck me that with HP5+ and using its box speed of 400 you might achieve the same effect as Ortho 80 but with a smaller speed loss However that depends on the factor of a 44A so I tried to find this out thinking it would be easy but this does not seem to be the case So, can anyone tell me the filter factor of a 44A? Thanks

I then also wondered about the cost advantage of the cheaper film,HP5+, plus the cost of a 44A filter over time and depending on how often you use Ortho 80. Well the cost of a 44A seems to be so large, that it may take a lifetime for it to pay for itself compared to the occasional extra expense of a roll of Ortho 80

That leaves the option of the 80A but how good is that compared to the 44A. Doremus rates it but as he says a comparison test with a 44A would be useful

At least the 80A seems easy to obtain and reasonably cheap in the U.K.

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I've been looking at transmission spectra for the 44, 44A and 80A filters (along with some others). It would appear that the 44 is a bit sharper cut than the 44A; it transmits less blue, but more green and tails off just a bit faster than the 44A.

The 80A, on the other hand, transmits a whole lot of blue and tapers off very slowly toward the red, still transmitting a bit of red at the long wavelength end of the visible spectrum.

Here's a graph of the transmission spectra for a bunch of blue, blue-green filters with the #11 green (X1) filter thrown in for comparison. Once you figure out which line is which filter (the colors are very close, so it takes a while), it becomes apparent that the 44 and 44A really don't transmit the deep blues like the 80A does. That might make the rendering with an 80A a bit closer to true ortho rendering than the 44 series, that is, if the red transmission isn't too much.

The graph of spectral sensitivity for Ilford Ortho Plus shows a fairly high and even sensitivity from just under 400nm to just above 550nm, after which it tapers off sharply, with no sensitivity above about 530nm, so true reds would be rendered as black.

I'll include the graph or the spectral transmission of the 80 series as well. As you can see, the 80B and 80C transmit progressively more red and green than the 80A. Blue sensitivity peaks about 400nm for all of them, then they taper off toward the red at different rates.

Best,

Doremus

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks I had difficulty working out which shade of several turquoises were which but it looked to me that cutting out red was done soonest was the 47B but the 44 and 44A reached the bottom line neck and neck Should I take it that the 47B hitting the bottom line much sooner confers no advantage in cutting out red as in fact both the 44 and 44A do this well before you get near to the red spectrum

The 80A while looking the best of the three A,B. and C tails off much more slowly so do I conclude from this that it will not be as successful at simulating ortho as a 44 or 44A or is it that so much red has been cut out by the 80A that what remains will not show up at all on a negative or show up red so marginally that in a print the difference will be truly negligible?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Indeed. The #47 cuts out green as well and simulates the oldest blue-sensitive emulsions. Later, sensitizing dyes were added to make the film sensitive to green as well and orthochromatic film was born. Later, the emulsions were able to be sensitized to red, hence panchromatic film, and infrared, hence infrared film.

I imagine that even the 80A filter will render reds a bit lighter than either ortho film or the rendering with the 44/44A filters. Still, it "boosts" the blue a lot, so has a nice effect opening up shadows. Blue skies are rendered lighter, though.

Best,

Doremus

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for your reply I think I'll wait to see Andy's video on the comparison with the 80A. While Andy got his 44 and 44A at a reasonable but unspecified price and either the 44 or 44A seem near impossible to get in the U.K. it may have to be the 80A or use Ilford Ortho

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks for your reply I think I'll wait to see Andy's video on the comparison with the 80A. While Andy got his 44 and 44A at a reasonable but unspecified price and either the 44 or 44A seem near impossible to get in the U.K. it may have to be the 80A or use Ilford Ortho

pentaxuser

I'm waiting for the filter to come to my neck of the woods...

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm waiting for the filter to come to my neck of the woods...

Great, Andy. Hearing that is like Manna from heaven as they say or is that Coquitlam?

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

 

[grain elevator]

I remembered this thread from a while back, I don't know whether everything on the topic was said in it, but certainly 99%.

Closest filter to create ortho response with pan film.

Hi: I am photographing a period-set, black and white motion picture and desire to create an orthochromatic look. Not surprisingly, there is no orthochromatic motion picture film, so we will have to create the tonality with filtration. Ideally, it would be a hard chop of all wavelengths longer...

www.photrio.com

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I remembered this thread from a while back, I don't know whether everything on the topic was said in it, but certainly 99%.

Closest filter to create ortho response with pan film.

Hi: I am photographing a period-set, black and white motion picture and desire to create an orthochromatic look. Not surprisingly, there is no orthochromatic motion picture film, so we will have to create the tonality with filtration. Ideally, it would be a hard chop of all wavelengths longer...

www.photrio.com

It's an excellent thread, full of info, and graphs, but no comparison photos.

 

[pentaxuser]

Of course the best way to find out is to test it out so I pulled out the old 80A, ordered a 44A, plan on getting a roll of Ilford Ortho Plus (or Rollie Ortho 25 though it is a bit slow) and just for fun, bought a couple of rolls of Double-X spooled into 35mm cassettes. Yeah, it won't be all that accurate of a test because I'm not using vintage ortho film stock but hey--that's as close as I can get for now.

The above came from the earlier and posted by Daniel Fort and mentioned in #14 above As far as I can tell we never saw any comparison shots

In the previous thread the consensus was around 44 and 44A and we know from Andy's useful video how good they were when Andrew shot a yellow and red hydrant with both the 44 and 44A. However the 80A remains the unknown quantity in terms of being a match to the 44s

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

An 80A is pretty mild. A 47 or 47A is more like a sledgehammer, and removes all the red and yellow, but also tends to have a whopping 4-stop filter factor with most pan films (nice for deliberate long exposures).

The problem is "green" foliage, which really isn't green in the sense our eyes see it, but reflects quite a bit of red, orange, and IR too. So it all depends on exactly which "Ortho" film you're trying to imitate. But a 47 or 47B would be more a match to old blue-sensitive films instead of Ortho.

True Wratten gel 44 series filters are damn expensive, if you can even find them, and don't hold up well in the field.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

An 80A is pretty mild. A 47 or 47A is more like a sledgehammer, and removes all the red and yellow, but also tends to have a whopping 4-stop filter factor with most pan films (nice for deliberate long exposures).

The problem is "green" foliage, which really isn't green in the sense our eyes see it, but reflects quite a bit of red, orange, and IR too. So it all depends on exactly which "Ortho" film you're trying to imitate. But a 47 or 47B would be more a match to old blue-sensitive films instead of Ortho.

True Wratten gel 44 series filters are damn expensive, if you can even find them, and don't hold up well in the field.

I got both 44 Wrattens from filterfind. New old stock. Not expensive. You are correct when you say that they do not hold up well in the field, though. Pretty much all the Wrattens I own are very worn out and scratched. This is why I switched to glass. Heavier, but I only need 4 or 5, and rarely use filters anyway...

 

[MattKing]

I remembered this thread from a while back, I don't know whether everything on the topic was said in it, but certainly 99%.

Closest filter to create ortho response with pan film.

Hi: I am photographing a period-set, black and white motion picture and desire to create an orthochromatic look. Not surprisingly, there is no orthochromatic motion picture film, so we will have to create the tonality with filtration. Ideally, it would be a hard chop of all wavelengths longer...

www.photrio.com

I have a DVD of that Oscar nominated film in my "to be watched" pile as we speak .

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Great film on the big screen!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Hi Andrew. Filterfind is just across town from me, near a beach where I often walk. He does have a lot of exotic filters and adapters crammed into that little warehouse space of his.

The problem with substituting cheaper polyester lighting "gels" for true gelatin filters is that you get a bit of sharpness loss.
That might be insignificant visually in a 1:1 contact print, but can become annoying upon enlargement.

Old Wratten gels are often faded, even if still unopened. The Wratten Handbook gives the fade risk for each specific variety.
The 44A filter has a DDD rating, which, just like a report card, means poor, poor, poor with respect to all three potential fading risk categories.

 

[cliveh]

But why not use ortho film in the first place?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

But why not use ortho film in the first place?

I do. But I like the idea of having one film that can do it all, including IR. My main Ortho films are XRAY, as it's available in sheet film. Too bad SFX isn't

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Like Andrew, I like having the option to filter pan film as I like to get the effects I want. Ortho or blue-sensitive are just other options to yellow, orange, green and red.

Doremus

 

[DREW WILEY]

Without repeating all the reasoning I already gave on a different forum, let me cut to the chase, and say that if you want to simulate the Ortho look using ordinary Pan film, the easiest way is to simply stack a medium dark green filter, like a Hoya X1, with a modest blue one, like a 80A or 80B, then test to figure out the combined filter factor, which will probably be somewhere around 3 stops.