Simplifying my life... buying liquid chemistry; a few questions for you fine folks.

[BetterSense]

I don't think bleaching is much of a concern. I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer at 1+4 for both film and RC paper and I've fixed film for over an hour, and prints for a half hour or more, and never noticed any problem.

 

[DLawson]

Kodak Rapid Fixer seems like a great product. Concentrated, fast, hardening or non; what's not to like?

Was that directed to my post? I don't recall saying anything about Kodak's product being not-likable.

Before starting the switch to Ilford Rapid Fixer I'd only ever used Kodak Professional Fixer (sodium thiosulfate). I had a lot of good reviews of Ilford Rapid Fixer, and if Kodak Professional Fixer is available in sizes less than one gallon, I couldn't find it.

(Also Kodak discontinued both the B&W paper that I used and the film developer I used. Why look for another darkroom product on a shrinking shelf?)

 

[holmburgers]

No, it was a rhetorical "what's not to like", not directed at anyone...

 

[2F/2F]

The use of Kodak Flexicolor (C-41) Fixer for black and white material is one of the gems I recently picked here on A.P.U.G. One gallon of the concentrate is under $10, and will make an ungodly amount of film or paper fixer. I believe PE recommends 1:9 for paper and 1:3 for film (though I use 1:4 - the standard C-41 dilution - just like with most liquid concentrate fixers).

It is a non hardening fixer, like Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam out of the bottle (i.e. sans hardener). Ilford recommend against use of a hardener for modern films, as it is unnecessary and inhibits washing. Hardeners are often not recommend for photo paper because they inhibit both washing and spotting.

The only thing I use a hardening fixer for is Efke/Adox emulsions. When I have a batch of these to develop, I get some Kodafix Solution. To my recollection, the powder Kodak Fixer can be mixed up with or without the hardener, and the liquid Kodafix Solution is a hardening fixer.

I think a hardening fixer is the way to go for what I do.

What do you do that makes you think this?

 

[holmburgers]

What do you do that makes you think this?

Well, I guess the only reason I say this is because I do 4x5" in trays. As it is, I get a few digs sometimes. But what everyone is saying is making me think otherwise about hardeners. Anybody doing tray development w/o hardeners and no issues?

 

[greybeard]

I have never had a problem using PMK or HC-110 followed by a simple hypo/metabisulfite fixer for FP4+ in trays. But, then, I was doing single sheets of 8x10; I don't think I would risk it for shuffle development, regardless of what the fixer was. If I were going to ding the film, it would probably in the developer with the lights off rather than the fixer or wash, where I can at least see what I am doing

 

[mike c]

Do not know how much good a hardening fixer would do for tray development after going through the deve. and stop trays.

 

[removed account4]

i have tray develop since about 1993 ... maybe 1 scratched negative after more than 2000 sheets of film
4x5 and 5x7 ... and i process between 8 and 35 sheets of film at a time in 5x7 and 8x10 trays and have never used hardener.
the trick with tray developing is to have one hand on the side keeping all the film OFF the
bottom of the tray so you pull the bottom sheet out and flop it on top of the stack and it
does not come into contact with the other film.

 

[holmburgers]

Sounds good...

You never realize how stupid you are until you talk to other people i.e. the developer has no hardener in it and that's where the bulk of your agitation takes place.

and jnanian how do you do 35 sheets at a time? That seems incredible! Usually I try to cycle thru my stack within 30 seconds; so if I have 6, I shuttle one to the top of the stack every 5 seconds. Sometimes I have trouble keeping up with that; do you have to extend total dev. time for 35 sheets? Just curious

 

[2F/2F]

I am just plain bad at developing multiple sheets in the same tray, with or without a hardener. I always got scratches, as careful as I am. I finally gave up and settled on home made "sloshers" made from plastic fruit baskets. One of these days I will get a proper slosher for my sheet film.

 

[greybeard]

the developer has no hardener in it

Except that pyro and catechol developers are reputed to have some "tanning" action which, by hardening the gelatin, restricts diffusion and leads to their well-known compensating behavior. Of course, this should be proportional to the concentration of developable silver, so if you are doing low-key pictures you may still have scratches

(That having been said in jest, aren't there references in older recipes for "tropical" developing that call for either pre-hardening the film or adding something like alum to the developer to limit swelling and softening? )

It seems to me that if you are doing enough volume that tray development is a chore, a set of tanks is called for. One-liter tanks will hold six 4x5 hangers, reasonably close to the developing capacity of many one-shot developers; gallon tanks will do 24 sheets at a time on quad hangers.

 

[holmburgers]

I'm not doing much volume. 6 sheets of b&w will probably take me a couple weeks to shoot. Hence my overall want for "simplified chemistry". I just don't do enough volume to justify a gallon of Kodak chemistry. Though it would be cool to buy raw powder and make my own, smaller sized, powder packets. That might be something for the future....

 

[Dave in Kansas]

I've always used a little Yankee developing tank for my sheet film. It's been a while since I've processed 4 x 5, but I think the tank holds about 12 sheets, but I've done as few as 4 or 5 at a time. It seems to me the tank requires around 1/2 gal of developer to cover the film. Mixing 1/2 gal. of developer isn't a problem for liquid developer like HC-110 or Rodinal and it's not that wasteful to use it one shot. A little goes a long way.

For 2 or 3 sheets, I usually tray develop and try to use trays with nice rounded edges and a smooth bottom to help prevent scratches to the film.

Dave

 

[holmburgers]

Yeah, I picked up a Patterson 5x7 tray... nicest trays money can buy! Big deep grooves and rounded edges on everything. As for tank dev'ing, 1/2 a gallon seems like a lot; I can usually get away with around 600mL in trays, IIRC.

P.S. I didn't write deep deep, why is it showing that? I can't edit it away either.

 

[removed account4]

hi holmburgers ..
i just put them in a water bath first
to separate and count the sheets ..
then the whole stack goes into the developer
and i count then as i shuffle them from the bottom
and flop over onto the top of the stack. i don't flip the sheets
sideways or do anything weird with them, i just shuffle through them.
every once in a while i stop and look for the clock to see how much time i have left ..
then shuffle them more until the timer stops.
then the whole stack goes into a water bath where i count them again
shuffle them the same way in the water ...
my left hand holds the film off the bottom of the tray, my right hand pulls the bottom sheet
off the stack and flops the sheet onto the top of the stack.
after a few rotations i grab them all and put them into the fixer and count and shuffle them again

it really isn't as hard as it seems ...

 

[holmburgers]

Yeah, but 35! That would literally take me at least 2 minutes to go thru, if not longer.

 

[removed account4]

i kind of rifle through the sheets
and tend not to worry about "stuff"

kinda like a window washer that doesn't look down

 

[holmburgers]

...and tend not to worry about "stuff"

That's probably the best way to simplify one's life

 

[greybeard]

Though it would be cool to buy raw powder and make my own, smaller sized, powder packets.

Aaaaaack! Careful, there---you'll have us inundated by posts claiming that dividing up powder formulations will alter the space-time continuum and launch us all into the hyperfocal distance! (And besides, weighing it out into several airtight glass jars works much better anyway...)

For that volume of film, you should seriously consider a couple of 1-liter tanks (I think that they can still be had through B&H or Adorama), using a one-shot liquid developer (I use PMK, but there are many to choose from) and a liquid fixer (TF5, maybe). With a bucket of temperature-adjusted water handy, you develop in tank 1, with tank 2 as a stop/rinse while you dump the used developer and refill tank 1 from your quart bottle of working fixer. When the film has been fixing for a minute or so, you turn on the lights to see how long it takes to clear. Used fixer goes back into the bottle until the clearing time is about double its original value at which point you dump it and make up a fresh tank's worth. Washing is by repeated fills and dumps (with whatever combination of cycles and timing your personal philosophy endorses) and the last tankful might get a few drops of wetting agent. You only have to store a few bottles of chemistry, the hangers protect your film, and you can expect reproducibility limited only by your temperature control and agitation discipline.

As someone said earlier, "What's not to like?"

 

[holmburgers]

Ah, so you're saying that breaking up Kodak powder packets is ok?! I was actually thinking about buying raw chemicals and mixing my own formulations, but perhaps you're right.....

And indeed, I do like this proposition... it sounds easy. I may consider it.

 

[Dave in Kansas]

It's generally not recommended to break up Kodak power packets of chemicals.

 

[holmburgers]

Aaaaaack! Careful, there---you'll have us inundated by posts claiming that dividing up powder formulations will alter the space-time continuum and launch us all into the hyperfocal distance!

It's generally not recommended to break up Kodak power packets of chemicals.

And so it begins.....

(sorry, couldn't resist )

 

[greybeard]

And so it begins.....

Don't say I didn't warn you.....

As far as doing your own ready-mixes: I used to use Edwal FG-7 with extra sulfite, and also D-23 (which is just elon, sulfite, and metaborate). It was a pain to weigh out just enough for one batch, so I acquired a number of pharmaceutical-type vials (glass, with push-in polyethylene caps) and did enough weighing for a few months' worth of developing. The individual chemicals were all stable when dry, and mixing up a batch only took a few minutes. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with fixer, although it is hard to beat the convenience of TF4 or TF5.

If you think about the chemistry, plain hypo fixes film, although slowly; sulfite is there to protect the hypo from the acid in the stop bath (I'm approximating here...) and the acid is in the stop bath to abruptly halt development (important if you are developing for only three or four minutes). There is more to it than this, of course (gotta keep an eye on the integrity of the space-time continuum) but it illustrates why I can develop paper in Dektol, rinse in water, and fix in hypo with a bit of bisulfite (which I pre-weigh, as mentioned above). Bulk hypo is pretty cheap, it can be measured by volume instead of weight, and has the potential to considerably simplify your life. I believe that at one time Patrick Gainer posted a number of notes on "teaspoon chemistry", pretty much this exact topic.

The one thing that makes me avoid dry mixes when possible is the pernicious effect of even tiny bits of chemical dust on undeveloped film. (My photography is not likely to be immortal; signing the negative with a thumbprint would be a bit pretentious.) A long-term goal is to have a darkroom with an associated "work room" for chemical mixing and alternative processes, but in the meantime the laundry area in the garage has to serve.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

HC-110 is great for sheet film if you do rotary or tray development.

I just don't know if it makes life simpler. The idea of mixing your own chemistry, like D23, with simple ingredients, and only as much as you need each time, is appealing. You basically don't ever have to worry about your developer going bad. Fixer? I have had 5L buckets of Hypam sitting around for a year and performing the same. The concentrate lasts a very long time.

- Thomas

I'm not doing much volume. 6 sheets of b&w will probably take me a couple weeks to shoot. Hence my overall want for "simplified chemistry". I just don't do enough volume to justify a gallon of Kodak chemistry. Though it would be cool to buy raw powder and make my own, smaller sized, powder packets. That might be something for the future....

 

[H. James Wolf]

Greybeard:
I, too, use D23 either 1:1 or as the first part of a divided developer. But I don't put metaborate in the regular D23. Should I start? What does it do that metol and s. sulfite don't?