Simple Query on Safety / Ergonomics of Pyro's for fine grain + stain

[Andrew O'Neill]

Some years back I tried a version of Pyro from Photo Formulary, but was put off by the toxic aspects and that was probably a good thing at the time as my chem handling and experience really needed to just nail the basics. Feel like I've got that one down largely by focusing on ID-11 and then D23... and more recently Karl's PC-512 as a sort of better keeping XTOL or HC-110 (your choice).

So now wanting to crush grain more directly without suffering a huge speed hit, I'm back looking at pyros. Feel I could do so and keep it m-a-n-a-g-a-b-l-y safe by sticking to 1) pre-mixed liquids and if possible, 2) avoiding the hyper thick syrups to enable easy measurement and dilution.

Current EXTENSIVE buzz about 510-Pyro aside, I'd read that John Finch's tends to go for the Barry Thornton vesions.... but I'm wondering whether in fact the easy-peasy, crowd favorite might instead by Sandy King's Pyrocat HD in glycol.

Am I on the right track with this line of thinking?

It's really hard to beat Pyrocat-HD. I've been using it for over 20 years. I prefer using water to mix it up instead of glycol, because I go through it quickly, defeating the purpose, and getting glycol up here isn't cheap.

 

[JWMster]

I hadn't seen this. Can I ask when he published this and how I find it? If you have a link to it that would be great. I am a little surprised that if these three "commercial" developers which he used to sell from his online "shop",are his favourite that he hasn't done a video on them to compare the results with his previous "best" which as I understood it from his comparison videos was Pyrocat HD by a very short head

Thanks

pentaxuser

John doesn't make it easy. He's got his work semi-divided between an old and new site (best as I can tell) and there's a degree of overlap. This is the article: http://www.pictorialplanet.com/blog/files/I-have-finally-replaced-my-three-classic-developers.html

I think in the Large Format Photography podcast, Sandy King takes exception to Hogan's Prescysol as a Pyrocat-HD knock off, but Finch seems to suggest it has more in it. I've not checked the formulas. I would agree that there is a bit of inconsistency in the youtube channel and the blog. He has taken down the articles on Dixactol and Prescysol but has only the one linked as far as I can tell. I hope he'll reply to my question.... but if it's like what we see here "simple" can elicit an encyclopedia.

 

[JWMster]

It's really hard to beat Pyrocat-HD. I've been using it for over 20 years. I prefer using water to mix it up instead of glycol, because I go through it quickly, defeating the purpose, and getting glycol up here isn't cheap.

Andy: Thanks for this. I do enjoy your vids, but I gather the developer explorations there have more to do with inquiry into "am I missing something that would work easier?" category. Amazon sells glycol pretty inexpensively I think, but your point on the rapid use does make that kind of unnecessary. For me, I'm just a little leery of the dry formulations at present.... that could change, but not until I give it a shot first likely thru a pre-mix liquid.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

...and don't forget about Obsidian Aqua. Razor sharp.

 

[pentaxuser]

JWMster, thanks for the link which I hadn't seen I think this blog coincides with his video promoting his decision to stock these three as off-the-shelf developers in his opening of his online shop which has since closed as I said. I was unable to decide how much of the blog was a clear conclusion that these top Pyrocat HD and how much was the promotion of three new developers that he has decided to sell. I am sure that what he said means that all three are good developers but I am not clear about how much each in is own way tops Pyrocat HD and more importantly whether it gives improvements on Pyrocat HD that are clear and obvious to all who have used them and Pyrocat

I look forward to hearing about his reply

If for instance Prescysol EF is still available then I wonder from where and at what price? I can't see it anywhere. As far as I know it was Peter Hogan's own "concoction" and seemed to disappear altogether for a period of years when as I understood it, Peter Hogan had moved on to another business connected with property.

pentaxuser

 

[JWMster]

If for instance Prescysol EF is still available then I wonder from where and at what price? I can't see it anywhere. As far as I know it was Peter Hogan's own "concoction" and seemed to disappear altogether for a period of years when as I understood it, Peter Hogan had moved on to another business connected with property.

pentaxuser

I'd' heard that, too. I think Photo Formulary carries all of these.

Separately, I'm wondering whether there bottle sizes would suggest that handling Pyrocat HD from Formulary would be easier with rebottling into smaller containers. Any thoughts?

 

[JWMster]

...and don't forget about Obsidian Aqua. Razor sharp.

Sharper then Pyrocat-HD?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Sharper then Pyrocat-HD?

Yes... with a bit more grain, but no problem with sheet film, and only noticeable with large prints. I tested it with HP5 120 at box speed, and found it gave more contrast, and a lost of speed of about half a stop. At box speed, results looked quite chalky, compared to Pyrocat-HD (which does exceptionally well at box speed). Also, tonality was good but not as smooth as what Pyrocat-HD can deliver. There's a video in my channel...

 

[JWMster]

Here's a question: Do you use Pyrocat-HD one shot (kind of what I'm expecting)?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Yes, one shot. Otherwise, I found Pyrocat grainier looking with the films I used than PMK pyrogallol. People can get nitpicky and contentious over their pyro preferences. I've tried a number of kinds, and have even come up with a couple of my own tweaks.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

One shot.

 

[pentaxuser]

I'd' heard that, too. I think Photo Formulary carries all of these.

The problem with PF is that it is across an ocean with high postage charges if you are in the U.K. as I am So if a U.S. stockist is all that is left then Prescysol or either of the other two developers mentioned in John Finch's blog has to be appreciably superior to Pyrocat HD to make it worthwhile buying

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Johnson]

If you look up the msds, Prescysol-EF has the same ingredients as Pyrocat M :

Pyrocat-P/Pyrocat-M

As announced earlier I have created a variation (actually two) on the Pyrocat-HD formula and they are currently being beta tested by some folks with experience using Pyrocat. This posting will serve notice to those persons that they are free to divulge any information they may wish about the...

www.photrio.com

The ingredients are Pyrocatechol, Metol and Sodium metabisulfite + potassium/sodium carbonate in part B.
Get your white coat!

 

[JWMster]

pentaxuser: I wondered. Daventry -by Medieval logic- ought to be next door or just down the road from Coventry. Is "No" an abbreviation for Norwich.... home of the famed, expensive, and amazingly cute Norwich terriers? Likely, "none of the above".

PF sends stuff via Pony Express even here in the States, and those ponies must be kind of picky about their (pricey) feed bags.

Otherwise:
FWIW, I tend to use 35mm for trying new stuff in pilot mode... which is why I kept my Nikon. Current project is to really spend some time shooting high ISO indoors in natural light. Might be a short lived experiment. Otherwise, I'm shooting mostly MF (645 and 67... and my TLR is figuratively pending a long walk on a short pier) as prep for getting back to 4X5. By prep I mean working out some of the other kinks in the proces. But I'm having enough fun it might just lead to a similar 4X5 de-equip mode. And then digital is for other stuff.... like church events, family events, some travel, and its a tool I'm trying to use to learn portrait and still life lighting. So my perspective is that with film, the process IS the fun, and working to get it where I'd like it to go (control) is the point. I think I'm seeing the current term is increasingly "hand made" photography.

 

[pentaxuser]

pentaxuser: I wondered. Daventry -by Medieval logic- ought to be next door or just down the road from Coventry.

Ít's about 18 miles from Coventry. I have no idea why or who chose the abbreviation of No. Maybe the way such info has to be abbreviated on Photrio there was no choice other than No but No are the first two letters of Northants which in turn is a shortened version of Northamptonshire

There is no two letter abbreviation that can be used that completely distinguishes it from other U.K. areas with a similar two letter beginning such as Norfolk where Norwich is a city

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I always wanted to try Prescysol to compare it with Pyrocat-HD, but to bring it up here costs an arm and a leg. Shipping is ridiculous, then the exchange rate on top...

 

[MattKing]

Ít's about 18 miles from Coventry. I have no idea why or who chose the abbreviation of No. Maybe the way such info has to be abbreviated on Photrio there was no choice other than No but No are the first two letters of Northants which in turn is a shortened version of Northamptonshire

There is no two letter abbreviation that can be used that completely distinguishes it from other U.K. areas with a similar two letter beginning such as Norfolk where Norwich is a city

pentaxuser

"No" is probably just a truncated version of what you originally typed ~ 18 years ago.
Over the years the software has been updated several times, and each update required some data migration. The "No" was probably the result of data migrating into a "state" or "province" field.
You can probably edit it to include a bit more.

 

[JWMster]

Isn't the English language beautiful in its complexity? Especially in England... where as newby visitors a few years back, my wife and I were puzzled by announced stations on the destination list at the train statiion. Spelling and pronunciation were NOTHING close to what an American would expect. I'd imagine the same would hold in reverse on visiting Oxford.... that's as in Missippi where sideways isn't just a direction.

 

[pentaxuser]

Isn't the English language beautiful in its complexity? Especially in England... where as newby visitors a few years back, my wife and I were puzzled by announced stations on the destination list at the train statiion. Spelling and pronunciation were NOTHING close to what an American would expect. I'd imagine the same would hold in reverse on visiting Oxford.... that's as in Missippi where sideways isn't just a direction.

Yes I'll have to show you my beautiful flat and trunk which I took with me on last cruise. This afternoon I'll be visiting my solicitors( lawyers) Marjoribanks and Cholmondeley. If you want to ask what street their office is on , just remember to ask for Marshbanks and Chumley. Then pop-in to one of our pubs and ask for bitter. It's all very simple really

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

Our Receiving Dept clerk was from Liverpool, and nobody could understand anything he said. So if the product had been shipped from Noi Yoik, someone at the other end would pick up the phone and say, Whaddaya want, ya joik?, then immediately hang up. If I had to call Mississippi, the gal at the other end would want to chat for twenty minutes in a slow drawl about gumbo recipes before transferring me. To talk to someone in Arkansas, I had to have a translator in Texas first; same with Louisiana. And why do the Brits have such a hard time learning correct English? Hasn't anything changed since Chaucer?

 

[JWMster]

Not since (last) April with her shoowers suite, the drought of March had perced to the root...

 

[Peter Schrager]

Funny no one has mentioned John Wimberley's W2D2
he was using it way before anyone and the resurgence of Pyro developers
I used it for several years until Pyro cat came along and switched only because it lasts indefinately
One mention about the stuff from Formulary; it will go bad on you toward the end of the container so be cautious and decant into smaller glass bottles.

 

[koraks]

switched only because it lasts indefinately

; it will go bad on you toward the end of the container

Sounds like you just answered your own question there.

 

[Milpool]

Indeed it was Wimberley who essentially started the “pyro revival” in the late 1970s with WD2D, although it’s worth noting he pretty much only used 5x7 film.

I had kind of forgotten about him in recent years but it turns out he switched to digital at some point.

Funny no one has mentioned John Wimberley's W2D2
he was using it way before anyone and the resurgence of Pyro developers
I used it for several years until Pyro cat came along and switched only because it lasts indefinately
One mention about the stuff from Formulary; it will go bad on you toward the end of the container so be cautious and decant into smaller glass bottles.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There was a long heritage of private pyro usage in one form or another. But its popularization was due to Gordon Hutchings' carefully researched little book, which gave the recipes for several former renditions, but also included his own PMK formula, which proved to be more predictable than earlier options.