Simple D-23 formulation question

[Tom1956]

Pardon my taking out a new thread on a subject that certainly has much archived discussion. Concerning D-23, which as we all know is 7.5 and 100g/l, what is the purpose of having so much sulfite? Would it be of any use to make a more dilute chemistry, and if so, would the long-term keeping properties suffer? Thanks.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I have been using D23 diluted 1:3 which gets it down to 25g/l but have never reduced it when making a stock solution...

Given that it's only a two ingredient developer the sodium sulfite is doing more than one job, though I will leave that to those with a much greater understanding of a balanced formula than myself.

 

[Tom1956]

I have been using D23 diluted 1:3 which gets it down to 25g/l but have never reduced it when making a stock solution...

Given that it's only a two ingredient developer the sodium sulfite is doing more than on job, though I will leave that to those with a much great understanding of balanced formulas than myself.

Thanks Shawn. May I ask the kind of film you use it with, and what sort of contrast are you getting from this dilution? Thanks.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Thus far my experience has been with Kodak Tmax400 (tmy2) in 4x5. I have yet to do any N- processing or testing with it. I have only made N negatives and N+ negatives. Obviously my times for the N+ were getting rather long, 24 minutes I believe. 20 minutes for N (all at 70degrees.) This was in a tray. I have begun testing in BTZS style tubes but am not yet confident in any times/temps.

It was suggested that I look to Microdol X to get an idea of where to start with time/temp development and that worked out well for me. Google will quickly find Kodak's data in PDF form for you.

The negatives I have made thus far have been excellent and relatively easy to print.

Here are two examples:
http://www.shawndougherty.com/p498857880/h6aed23c7#h6aed23c7

and

http://www.shawndougherty.com/p498857880/h6755878d#h6755878d

 

[Tom1956]

My personal interest in D-23 is that it can be D-76 when I want it, Rodinal 1:100 without the grain, when I want it, and even Microdol when I want it. That's my thought pattern on it. I might be wrong in my opinion, but it seems D-23 can be like a chameleon.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The sulfite in D-23 serves several purposes. It helps to protect the developing agent against aerial oxidation. It also acts as the accelerator in that it produces a pH high enough for developing to take place. Lastly it acts as a silver halide solvent to produce a fine grain developer. Chaange the ratio ot Metol to sulfite and the developer may no longer work.

There are many developer formulations that use less Metol and sulfite by including a separate accelerator such as sodium carbonate. Perhaps one of these would be more satisfactory.

 

[Tom1956]

Another advantage I see is simplicity. All you need is the Elon. Sulfite can be bought by the 50lb bag as if to be so much fertilizer.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Another simple developer is the Bishop Developer

This is the developer used by G. Paul Bishop, Sr who was a famous portraitist.

Distilled water 28 oz
Acetone …………………………………………………………………………………… 1 oz
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ……………………………………………… 30 gr
Metol ………………………………………………………………………………………… 20 gr

Usage

Use full strength. This developer does not keep and should be made up just before use.

Development Times at 21°C for Medium Format Films.

Kodak PLUS-X 125 13 - 14 min
TRI-X 400 15 - 16 min
Slow films 100 ISO or less 12 - 13 min

The acetone reacts with the sulfite to form an addition product and also sodium hydroxide which acts as the accelerant for the developer. Mr Bishop recommends using a good grade of acetone.

 

[Tom1956]

First time I EVER heard of something like acetone being in a developer. Wow. But perhaps you might have heard of my ulterior motive of dealing with the contrast situation of X-Ray film, and still have a good, simple, all-around developer.

 

[Tom1956]

Another simple developer is the Bishop Developer

This is the developer used by G. Paul Bishop, Sr who was a famous portraitist.

Distilled water 28 oz
Acetone …………………………………………………………………………………… 1 oz
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ……………………………………………… 30 gr
Metol ………………………………………………………………………………………… 20 gr

Usage

Use full strength. This developer does not keep and should be made up just before use.

Development Times at 21°C for Medium Format Films.

Kodak PLUS-X 125 13 - 14 min
TRI-X 400 15 - 16 min
Slow films 100 ISO or less 12 - 13 min

The acetone reacts with the sulfite to form an addition product and also sodium hydroxide which acts as the accelerant for the developer. Mr Bishop recommends using a good grade of acetone.

Did you go back and revise your post?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Yes, I decided to re-submit as the original formula. The problem is with the acetone. When you add A amount of acetone to B amount of water you do not get A+B as the total volume but something less. The exact conversion to metric units just became too much of a pain.

 

[Tom1956]

Yes, I decided to re-submit as the original formula. The problem is with the acetone. When you add A amount of acetone to B amount of water you do not get A+B as the total volume but something less. The exact conversion to metric units just became too much of a pain.

Thanks. But before you changed the post it was like 37ml of acetone and maybe a gram or 2 of sulfite and a gram or 2 of elon. The changed post is quite different. Perhaps they were mis-types. All of a sudden, it's a lot of elon, and a lot more sulfite. Pardon my confusion.

 

[Trask]

Shawn wrote: Obviously my times for the N+ were getting rather long, 24 minutes I believe. 20 minutes for N (all at 70degrees.)

Shawn, was this with D-23 at full strength, or diluted?

 

[Tom1956]

Shawn wrote: Obviously my times for the N+ were getting rather long, 24 minutes I believe. 20 minutes for N (all at 70degrees.)

Shawn, was this with D-23 at full strength, or diluted?

I took it to mean 1:3 myself, in that D-23 is something akin to Microdol which has rather long times at that dilution.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Shawn, was this with D-23 at full strength, or diluted?

Yes, those are 1:3 times. Thanks, fellows.

I should note that I like relatively low contrast negatives to contact print on VC paper at around G3.5 or 4 for my base exposure. The film was exposed at 200.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Thanks. But before you changed the post it was like 37ml of acetone and maybe a gram or 2 of sulfite and a gram or 2 of elon. The changed post is quite different. Perhaps they were mis-types. All of a sudden, it's a lot of elon, and a lot more sulfite. Pardon my confusion.

The re-submitted formula(the original as given by Bishop) is in the English system using grains not grams. This can be a bit confusing but the accepted abbreviations are gr for grains and g for grams.

I might also add that the formula makes a little over 28 oz of developer. The formula is not "made up to" like most metric formulas. The acetone can be added just before use.

The developer is designed for MF and LF film. Judging from Bishop senior's work this formula produces beautiful negatives.

 

[Tom1956]

Those are 1:3 times. Times for full strength are much shorter. Development times for TMax films are also longer in general than with other films. So test first.

Tom1956, for what it's worth I still think you're looking in the wrong place regarding your x-ray film issue. You're essentially after "maximum speed-minimum gamma". D-23 is not really that kind of thing (stock, 1+1, 1+3). It is a general purpose developer very similar in working properties to D-76.

Thank you MR74, and I do respect your opinion. You know what just galls me to no end? I guess I should be just buying some Pyrocat or Rodinal for this and shutting up. So I go to the Formulary website, find my 12 dollar item, then "add to cart", then go to my cart for checkout, and BAM--35 bucks. All of a sudden any economy to using this film is gone. I think that Formulary, and Digitruth is great, but I can't deal with them if every time I need a feather or a thimble, it's going to cost me 35 clams just to get one in the door. BTW--and I have a special aversion to cooked cabbage, and Rodinal. I just plain don't like the stuff.

 

[Tom1956]

Well, the good news is if you were considering Pyrocat or Rodinal, you're probably best off trying D-23. Pyrocat is not really a compensating or low contrast developer for this type of application unless it is used in stand/semi-stand procedures (at least reportedly). So I don't think you'd gain much there. As for Rodinal, it isn't a compensating developer either, although some people report contrast reduction when it is used in extreme dilutions. It also tends to actually decrease film speed slightly vs say D-76. So again, I don't think you're missing out too much. In the end these are still general purpose developers.

But, I don't want to discourage anyone from experimenting. It never hurts to try something (on a spare roll of course), so you have nothing to lose by trying D-23 at say a 1+3 dilution and see what happens. Maybe it will give you the results you're looking for with the x-ray film. Maybe a two-bath procedure with D-23, or a Windisch or Beutler compensating Metol formula. If you end up ordering from Formulary, something like FX-1, FX-2 (or TFX-2) might help you get lower contrast with reasonable film speed. But I agree these are not very economical solutions unless you bulk-mix yourself.

Beutler's developer, huh? Shades of Tetenal Neofin Blue. I've got that formula right here in my trusty Amateur Photographer's Handbook by Aaron Sussman I've had for 50 years. I've got my sulphite already, and some metol is on the way--picked up an ebay deal on that just now. I wonder if I could pick up some Na2CO3 locally. I bet I can. And I'm in business. Thanks.

 

[Trask]

I've used Paul Buff's acetone/metol developer many times -- see attached photos. The formula, as I worked it out converting from his original which cited grains of chemicals, is as follows:

Water....................965.5 ml
Acetone...................34.5 ml
Sodium sulfite...........2.24gm
Metol......................1.5 gm

No topping up to a liter at the end, as this was converted from U.S. measures. I sometimes have used this formula but with double the amount of SS and metol, and at times I've added a bit of KBr to reduce fog. The resulting images are very sharp. These are negative scans, which at full resolution would allow you to easily read the text on the T-shirts or the small addresses on the posters.
Be sure to use a glass graduate to measure the acetone, for it will easily damage a plastic one.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I've used Paul Buff's acetone/metol developer many times -- see attached photos. The formula, as I worked it out converting from his original which cited grains of chemicals, is as follows:

Water....................965.5 ml
Acetone...................34.5 ml
Sodium sulfite...........2.24gm
Metol......................1.5 gm

This is essentially identical to the Bishop formula converted to metric. The web conversion program that I was using last night was giving me incorrect values that were too low when I tried to confirm my notes. So whatever the name you call the formula it produces some very nice negatives.

Thanks for posting this and confirming that I wasn't going nuts last night.

For those curious the Bishop formula is

Acetone 35.7 ml
Sodium sulfite anhydrous 2.56 g
Metol 1.56 g
Water to make 1.0 l

 

[Tom1956]

This is essentially identical to the Bishop formula. The conversion program that I was using last night was giving me incorrect values that were too low when I tried to confirm my notes. So whatever the name you call the formula it produces some very nice negatives.

Thanks for posting this and confirming that I wasn't going nuts last night.

For those curious the Bishop formula is

Acetone 35.7 ml
Sodium sulfite anhydrous 2.56 g
Metol 1.56 g
Water to make 1.0 l

What would you guess for capacity? 4- 8x10 sheets/liter of this solution?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

What would you guess for capacity? 4- 8x10 sheets/liter of this solution?

That would be a good guess. I base this on D-76H 1+1 used as a one-shot. The amount of Metol is the same for both developers as used.

Since the amounts in the original Bishop formula are to only 2 decimal places the metric version can also be rounded of to 2 places.

 

[Tom1956]

Thank you Gerald. I've pretty well decided to run with the Willi Beutler developer. I've already ordered the metol, and have studied making carbonate anhydrous, so am studying capacity. I'm thinking Maybe 10 2-sided sheets/2 liter combo of stock. I may be way off. Unfortunately I've already polluted the forum by dredging up an old thread on the matter. So now there's 2. Sorry, guys.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Thank you Gerald. I've pretty well decided to run with the Willi Beutler developer.

I have mentioned this before but when I was a "starving graduate student" the Beutler formula was my developer of choice. With Pan-X it made a beautiful combination.

Add a third ingredient to Metol and sulfite and you have several possibilities among them the Beutler and D-76H. Add a fourth one and the choices expand to several dozen. Have fun.

 

[Tom1956]

First Experience with Willi Beutler's

Well I just did my first set of exposure and development tests on Fuji Green X Ray film. Nothing definitive, or anywhere near. I had cut down the 8x10 film to 4-4x5's to reduce needless waste. First impressions of Buetler's is that it seems a good bit more energetic that I had imagined. I kept overdeveloping badly. My last piece of film I cut down to 1 1/2 minutes at 65 degrees F. It was a bit underdeveloped. Seems like I might have a preliminary film speed of ASA 32 I believe I'll load up a whole 8x10 sheet and do ASA 32 and develop at 2 1/2 minutes, and see where I stand in or near the ballpark.