Simple Bleach Sepia Formula Ques

[Jordan]

I'm with the other posters in recommending a thiourea toner if you need to work with such huge volumes. At the scale you're talking about, you'll need something like 2.5 kg of sodium sulfide... I would give serious thought to how you can safely weigh out that much material at once unless you have a really efficient fume hood. Plus the storage issues for the used toner...

Anyway, let us know how it works out!

 

[Jordan]

The insidious thing about hydrogen sulfide (which is evolved from sodium sulfide solutions by slight hydrolysis) is that while it is detectable at small concentrations, it also tends to "numb" the nose over typical exposure times. Combine that with its toxicity (comparable to cyanide gas, as DaveOttawa mentions) and it can be problematic.

Thiourea (in odourless sepia toner) is toxic by ingestion, but the solutions are odourless because the sulfide equivalent is generated at the point of reaction with silver. A similar reaction is used to make organic sulfur compounds in the lab without smelling it up.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Dave and Jordon

thanks for your help.

But if I look at Ians formual
Part b the toner is a 1-9 dilution from the stock . sodium sulfide is 50grams for the stock to make 1litre which upon dilution makes 9 litres. therefore if I want to make 50 litres of working solution I think I would be mixing 550grams of sodium sulfide to 50 litres of water.

Am I still in possible problem areas for the issues you state?
thanks
Bob

 

[Ian Grant]

Bob, as both parts of the toning process is to finality you can probably get away with a lot less solution than you think.

I've processed images over 20ft long and all the processing was done by spraying the chemicals, but we did wear airline face masks. So that's not really an option for you.

For your toning use a sponge for both parts, you won't need to use that much bleach or toner that way, possibly less than 5 litres. I've developed and fixed images the same way, and the developing was nice and even.

You could mix 5 litres of each and have water and stock solutions ready to mix more quickly if needed.

Ian

 

[DaveOttawa]

chemistry alert...

Assumptions:

Sodium sulphide (SS) formula = Na2S.9H2O, FW = 240

Each mole of SS can potentially produce 1 mole of H2S gas

Each litre of working strength solution of toner contains 5 g of SS or 5/240 = 0.021 moles so can produce 0.021 moles of H2S. (I'm assuming dilution is 1+9)

1 mole of any gas at STP (0 degrees C) occupies 22.4 litres.

0.021 moles of H2S = ~.47 litres at 0 degrees C, more at 20C.

So: Each litre of working strength toning solution could produce >0.47 litres of H2S at 20C, the recomended max concentraton is 10ppm, most safety conscious employers in my experience would aim for 10% of that if possible i.e. 1ppm, so if you estimate the litre volume of your facility you can estimate the possible max concentration and if it will be safe.

The above is definitely a worst case calculation (normally not all the H2S would be released at once and presumably there is some exhaust system in operation etc.) but for safety calculations the worst case is the one to consider. At least if you do the calculation you'll know how critical your exhaust ventilation system is.

For example a room 3 x 3 x 5 metres, 45,000 litres volume, 1 litre of working strength toner could (worst case) give you ~10ppm of H2S (0.47/45,000 litres).

I should note that while I have experience in industrial chemical safety matters and the above shouldn't be total BS you have to use your own judgement about how you use the info.

BTW SS will actually produce all its potential H2S at once in contact with acid (e.g. stop) so don't mix with acids.

Hi Dave and Jordon

thanks for your help.

But if I look at Ians formual
Part b the toner is a 1-9 dilution from the stock . sodium sulfide is 50grams for the stock to make 1litre which upon dilution makes 9 litres. therefore if I want to make 50 litres of working solution I think I would be mixing 550grams of sodium sulfide to 50 litres of water.

Am I still in possible problem areas for the issues you state?
thanks
Bob

 

[DaveOttawa]

Sponges sound a great idea and simple, just remember to wear gloves!

Bob, as both parts of the toning process is to finality you can probably get away with a lot less solution than you think.

I've processed images over 20ft long and all the processing was done by spraying the chemicals, but we did wear airline face masks. So that's not really an option for you.

For your toning use a sponge for both parts, you won't need to use that much bleach or toner that way, possibly less than 5 litres. I've developed and fixed images the same way, and the developing was nice and even.

You could mix 5 litres of each and have water and stock solutions ready to mix more quickly if needed.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

When sponge processing its useful to add some photoflo/wetting agent.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

I agree, good recomondation Ian, I will use trays for the bleach but will use a sponge for the toner. I will wear gloves Dave.

Thanks all for great advice and help .
very much appreciated.
I am picking up the chems tommorow and I will post some jpegs on this thread of the larger prints held up to my body which will include orange boiler suit for effect.

Bob

Sponges sound a great idea and simple, just remember to wear gloves!

 

[Vaughn]

The insidious thing about hydrogen sulfide (which is evolved from sodium sulfide solutions by slight hydrolysis) is that while it is detectable at small concentrations, it also tends to "numb" the nose over typical exposure times. Combine that with its toxicity (comparable to cyanide gas, as DaveOttawa mentions) and it can be problematic.

It has killed oilmen in the fields...very problematic. They lose their ability to smell hydrogen sulfide after a short exposure and don't realize the concentration they are breathing.

Vaughn

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ok Folks
you all have been so willing to help I have a couple of new questions that change the topic slightly.

I used Tim Rudmans book for reference and used the Sommervile blue toner formula. Bleach which is very strong wash then blue toner.

What I loved was the way the Blue Toner only attacked the shadows after I had bleach sepia, wash, then gold tone. The effect is wonderful and I have a good handle on it.
What I didn't like was that the more I washed the prints the blue came out and was less intense. How can I control the Blue shadow tone without washing out the colour but still being concened that I am getting an archival wash.
I know that the blue is not considerded archival as it does not react the same as bleach/sepia and gold but I would love to hear your thoughts on my concern with archivalness and not losing the nice blue tone in the shadows.

 

[dancqu]

The insidious thing about hydrogen sulfide (which is evolved
from sodium sulfide solutions by slight hydrolysis) ...

Sodium sulfide solutions are quit alkaline and therefor
the sulfide is not given to hydrolysis. Also, hydrogen
sulfide it self is very soluble in water.

I always mix sodium sulfide with distilled water and have
never caught a hint of odor though very dilute solutions
prepared with even a slightly acidic water may produce
enough H2S for the nostrils. Dan

 

[Les McLean]

Unfortunately you will have to take the toning further that you wish and then wash it back to the depth of coulour you require. As far as I know that is the only method you can use as blue toner always becomes weaker with prolonged wash.

 

[Ian Grant]

Why use a toner, why not bleach and redevelop in C41 Chemistry with a dye coupler added. Far more controllable and better stability.

One look at the images in "Dark Summer" Bob Carlos Clarke will make you realise the endless incredible controls of the possibilities available. Admittedly he used Agfa & Tetenal products but it's very easy ton make up similar yourself.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

I should add the C41 type developer can be far simpler than used for colour films, just a simple developer based around CD-1, CD-2, CD-3, CD-4 and variants.

After all your redeveloping so cant over develop

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ok this sound interesting.
what I like with the bleach/blue toner is that it only attacks the shadows as the sepia and gold have set the midtones and highlights.
Does this redevelopment with dye coupler work the same?
Where do I get Blue Dye Coupler?
I can get Fuji C41 Developer in any quantity but how is it used?
Where can I see some of Dark Summer images?

Why use a toner, why not bleach and redevelop in C41 Chemistry with a dye coupler added. Far more controllable and better stability.

One look at the images in "Dark Summer" Bob Carlos Clarke will make you realise the endless incredible controls of the possibilities available. Admittedly he used Agfa & Tetenal products but it's very easy ton make up similar yourself.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Bob, you bleach as for Sepia toning, then redevelop with C41 dev and add a-naphthol (alpha - naphthol).

That gives a B&W and blue image, you can bleach away the B&W again to leave just the blue dye. Or you can re-bleach and redevelop building up a higher level of dye, this technique is similar to the looping technique used with C41 by astro-photographers, it can be repeated a few times.

I haven't got my notebooks to hand but from memory you need to add somewhere between 0.2 - 1 gm of the coupler to a litre of developer.

Ian

 

[tim rudman]

Ok this sound interesting.
what I like with the bleach/blue toner is that it only attacks the shadows as the sepia and gold have set the midtones and highlights.
Does this redevelopment with dye coupler work the same?
QUOTE]

Hi Bob, just picked up on this.
A problem with all iron blue toned prints is that the longer you wash the more blue leaves the print. One option is to slightly over tone and allow to wash back. However, you are dealing with a sub-archival process. The blue is also affected by the acidity/alkalinity of the wash. Most tap water tends to be slightly alkaline and unfortunately this is where the iron blue is least stable - and most purple. If you make the wash water slightly acid the iron blue tone will be more stable but shifts more towards cyan, which you may or may not want. You can see examples (different toner, but still iron blue) on P. 73 in my toning book.

The chromogenic toner is quite a good idea - more stable too and you can get just about any colour, many more than a metal toner will give, even by mixing/multiple toning. Take a look at P 146 - 151 and see if this might give what you want. You can use the 'normal' bleaches which will not much affect tones you have pretoned with sepia,gold,selenium. Note, there can be 2 bleach stages - see 'second steps' P 148.
best wishes
Tim

 

[Bob Carnie]

You Brits are the best.

Is that all you folks do over there every day, mix up concoctions all day long? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter witches brew.

If I blow up I will squarely blame it on you guys.I better increase my life insurance to take care of Laura,Barney and Lucy.

Bob

 

[Ian Grant]

Bob, here 3 suggestions for couplers

Cyan - 2,4 dichloro napthol
Magenta - p-nitrophenyl acetonitrile
Yellow - acetyl 2,5 dichloroanilide

Ian

 

[DaveOttawa]

Any news on the sponge on sepia method, if so how did it work?

Potter-photography connection trivia of dubious veracity: parts of a Harry Potter movie used Laycock Abbey in England, home of Fox-Talbot as a location (Hogwarts School interiors?)

You Brits are the best.

Is that all you folks do over there every day, mix up concoctions all day long? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter witches brew.

If I blow up I will squarely blame it on you guys.I better increase my life insurance to take care of Laura,Barney and Lucy.

Bob

 

[Bob Carnie]

Picked up the chems today at Nymoc and will be posting images hopefully on mon with my thoughts on the big print toning.

Any news on the sponge on sepia method, if so how did it work?

Potter-photography connection trivia of dubious veracity: parts of a Harry Potter movie used Laycock Abbey in England, home of Fox-Talbot as a location (Hogwarts School interiors?)

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ok back to this thread, I just finished since last post > 20 -30x40 mural prints from different negs. I have toned every one and here are my observations.

Murals are a pain in the ass to get a good solid workflow and methods.But once you get it you will love it.Need space though.

I am now printing the images in large troughs ,dev, stop and initial fix, and then in a separate room I am doing a double final fix, hypo clear and wash to dry.
Without the second dedicated fix , hypo clear work room I was not getting proper fixing and when toning some prints went bad. I corrected this problem and would advise anyone doing murals to tone to make sure you are working to archival standards.*My workflow for 20x24 prints is quite good in my main darkroom with none of the above problems.

Tri toning is the bomb.
I think I am totally refreshed by doing this and am extremely excited about the results.
Thanks to all above for your formulas,
I now have a very good non stinking bleach sepia thanks to you guys that I mix from scratch cheap.
The gold toner *Gaf 231* is beautiful on top of sepia followed by selenium or Iron Blue, but holy shit batman $300 dollars for 4litres of working, there must be a cheaper method that I am not aware of. Tim Ian, any suggestions???
Sommerville Blue bleach tone blue , is very difficult to work with in regards to the heavy odour of the bleach componant, but the cyan blue is soft and beautiful on the other toners,
I also have tried this formuala
Ferric Ammonium Citrate-32g
Oxalic Acid - 32 g
Potassium Ferricyanide - 32 g
Add 8 litres of water to make a direct blue toner.

The effect is bluer shadows than the sommerville and a one step process.
the draw back is the whole print is stained yellow on white borders and it takes a long time to wash out the yellow.
If there is a quicker way to wash the yellow out , this toner would be my choice.

All in all a very satisfying couple of weeks.I will post some Jpegs of the final images and my working setup.. Dinesh get over here with your point and shoot.

 

[Ian Grant]

Bob, we look forward to seeing the Jpegs. Thanks for sharing your results.

The cheapest Gold toner is making up your own using Gold Chloride and the commercial price is around $47.95 per gm from Photographers Formulary. This works out at less than $125 for 4 litres of working srenght GAF 231 toner

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ian, Tim and others, a quick question, I have noticed that in tri toning when selenium is the last toner I have absolutely no problems, when Iron Blue is my last toner, I wash and when dry I seem to have artifacts*scum* marks on the print surface and the print looks dull. It kind of reminds me of the agfa brown toner scum marks I use to get , I would rinse the print in a slight acidic solution then rewash and the print would clear.

Would this be a proper approach for the iron blue??
I want to get to you Brits before you have your tea and go nighty night.

Bob