Silicone for a permanent process?

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jsmoove

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So I've been looking for an alternative to photoceramics, which processes are pretty complicated. My question now is..
Would RTV (room temp vulcanizing) silicones work to permanently seal away a cyanotype or other emulsions on glass?
From what I read there are many types of silicone, like optical LSR, encapsulation and potting silicone...some that cure at room temperature in hours, some in minutes.
Silicone bonds to glass, and has the benefit of being non-toxic and does not require heat (unless to speed up the process).
Could you seal away an emulsion using silicone without the use of gelatin?
How about mixing an emulsion into silicone?
Anyone tried this route?
 

AgX

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How about mixing an emulsion into silicone?


What you mean is not silicone, but curing silicone rubber. These compounds, both as paste ansd as cured rubber, are extremely water repellent. Thus you cannot dissolve photographic emulsion into it. You likely would not even succeed to make a suspension. And if so, then both parts would not longer work as expected. The emulsion would not work photographically, the paste would not cure.
 

nmp

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So I've been looking for an alternative to photoceramics, which processes are pretty complicated. My question now is..
Would RTV (room temp vulcanizing) silicones work to permanently seal away a cyanotype or other emulsions on glass?
From what I read there are many types of silicone, like optical LSR, encapsulation and potting silicone...some that cure at room temperature in hours, some in minutes.
Silicone bonds to glass, and has the benefit of being non-toxic and does not require heat (unless to speed up the process).
Could you seal away an emulsion using silicone without the use of gelatin?
How about mixing an emulsion into silicone?
Anyone tried this route?

If your photographic object is flat - you can look up "face-mounting" which is a fairly routine way to frame photographs behind acrylic sheets. I have tried something similar to mount an inkjet print in the back of glass using a clear silicone based sealant bought from the hardware store. Dab a small quantity in the middle of the your glass cyano. Then cover with a piece of glass and apply pressure (and temperature if need be) to spread the sealant to the edges. Allow to cure. I think the viscosity was a little too high in my case so I was not able to get a full coverage on a larger than 4x5 print.

:Niranjan.
 

gone

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If I wanted to seal the image, I'd go w/ matting and framing it, or use a clear spray from an art store. You could always brush or spray some clear acrylic/polyurethane/ etc.
 
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jsmoove

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@AgX Gotcha. So layering curing silicone rubber overtop an emulsion that is on glass, would that work? Is there a particular type of curing silicone rubber that would be best to use if so?

@nmp @momus Unfortunately my object is not flat, but I think it still applies to any surface type. I was thinking about pottery and photoceramics, where there are curved surfaces.
I did read last night: http://resources.culturalheritage.org/pmgtopics/2001-volume-nine/09_06_Penichon.pdf Which mentions what you say.
Specifically curious about silicone rubber and whether it can go on top of an emulsion straight up and left to cure. I know there are different shore ratings of silicone rubber and it is supposed to be pretty sturdy outdoors.
 
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What do you believe this will do better than a lacquer?
 
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jsmoove

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@grain elevator I actually don't know anything about lacquers, do they bond to glass? How do they compare in inertness to glass and silicone for longevity? And dry times, toxicity?
 
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@grain elevator I actually don't know anything about lacquers, do they bond to glass? How do they compare in inertness to glass and silicone for longevity? And dry times, toxicity?
I don't know that much. Pretty sure most bond just fine to glass. But don't you want to put them on an emulsion? Then I'd assume you just need to experiment, probably water based is out. Re. longevity, I doubt any of your organic alternatives lasts more than a few years outside (and you've abandoned the inorganic route in the other thread, right?). UV light is one concern, look for something that's made to be exposed to UV. Why would dry times or toxicity be an issue? People lacquer all kinds of things all the time, take the usual precautions.
It seems to me you also need to re-think the initial step. Cyanotype doesn't use an emulsion in the sense of silver gelatin, which forms a layer and can be coated on glass. I don't know how you'd coat cyanotype on something inert like glass, but maybe people have solved that.
 
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jsmoove

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@grain elevator I haven't had the chance to experiment with cyanotype on glass, but I hear you coat the glass in gelatin first and thats it, then develop with water. I was wondering if you could literally just put cyanotype on glass with or without the gelatin layer, then cover it with silicone rubber. I also hear that silicone rubber does indeed last a very long time outdoors and would protect against UV.
I suppose water vs silicone is the biggest issue, unless things are dry.
Only curious about dry times because quicker drying seems less involved. Less toxic seems better for handling, and then less toxic for any chemical leaching if the piece is left outdoors for an extended period of time, like photoceramic gravestone pictures for instance. Siloxanes are not biodegradable, but are pretty much inert as I understand it...
 
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@grain elevator I haven't had the chance to experiment with cyanotype on glass, but I hear you coat the glass in gelatin first and thats it, then develop with water. I was wondering if you could literally just put cyanotype on glass with or without the gelatin layer, then cover it with silicone rubber. I also hear that silicone rubber does indeed last a very long time outdoors and would protect against UV.
I suppose water vs silicone is the biggest issue, unless things are dry.
Only curious about dry times because quicker drying seems less involved. Less toxic seems better for handling, and then less toxic for any chemical leaching if the piece is left outdoors for an extended period of time, like photoceramic gravestone pictures for instance. Siloxanes are not biodegradable, but are pretty much inert as I understand it...
You go through such trouble with the rest of it, then worry about drying times?!?
I wonder why silicone rubber isn't used for similar applications, probably not all that great as a translucent surface layer. Maybe not transparent and smooth surfaced enough, or not likely to remain so. I'd just look at what industries with the same issue do. Signs, cars, boats, planes... all need to withstand the elements. Then just try if it works over your cyanotype.
That its non-toxic as long as it's intact doesn't mean its fine to release into the environment. As you say it's not bio-degradable. It's still dumping plastic into nature, just like any synthetic lacquer. Sure, some are worse than others, I don't know which ones, but wouldn't trust that silicone rubbers are among the most harmless.
If you want it to be really bio-degradable, that goal is at odds with permanence, as you seem to have noted. But oil varnishes and shellac can last reasonably long...
And of course the surface needs to be dry before you can apply any coat!
 
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DREW WILEY

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Bad idea overall. And I do have experience with specialized silicones, including solvent-free liquid potting silicones. These are quite expensive and have a limited shelf life. First of all, they're not optically appropriate unless totally encapsulated between two sheets of clear glass, or between glass and another flat impermeable substrate, with all the air bubbles removed - a tricky expensive process. I've done analogous work - but for a thousand dollar PER PRINT upcharge! It's not easy. Ordinary hardware or auto silicones contain chemicals bad for your print, and won't permanently bond to glass anyway. But if this is just for sake of a fun causal craft project anyway, you could experiment. Pourable polyester resins are popular crafts, but are unhealthy to work with. None of this kind of thing should be considered "archival" or suitable for serious print presentation. True archival encapsulation is a topic way beyond this forum.

The whole point of silicone is that it resists other materials. There's no way you're going to turn it into a light-sensitive emulsion itself. If you can figure out how to do that, well ...line up for a Nobel prize. And siloxanes, those permanently grab onto glass and aluminum and ruin every bit of it they might accidentally touch. True butyl acetate print lacquers are extremely unhealthy and flammable, and yellow within fifteen years or so. Acrylic print lacquers like art store Krylon are much safer. But the problem with any kind of over-layer is that it has to be expansion/contraction compatible to the substrate, or there will inevitably be a bonding failure down the line.

A fun little pdf was linked on a previous post, but is hopelessly generic, over-simplified, and out of date. Modern laminations are routinely done with adhesive films. These require serious training and a solid equipment investment, and are generally geared to bigger pieces, requiring a large extra-clean workspace. Not for the financially faint of heart.

Rubber-like photosensitive resists do exist, but in concert with highly proprietary alternative printing methods. I know who does these; and it's a very expensive process. There are all kinds of potential tweaks down that avenue, but not for beginners. Paint-on design resists using things like natural pine pitch or asphalt, combined with acetic acid from agave fermentation, for example, have been employed for perhaps thousands of years. Integrating that with scanned photos content is obviously a very recent innovation. Direct laser burn-in is another option. All kinds of stuff is being tried.
 
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jsmoove

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Thanks Drew, I had asked on a different forum and someone suggested to me "encapso K" for encapsulation silicone. Seems pretty clear optically, but the msds says 60% of it is a "new jersey trade secret". Wasn't thinking crafty, was curious what the next best option was to photoceramics.
So more or less the gist is if you put the silicone on top of cyanotype on glass, it'd just rip it right off?
What about optical LSR? Very expensive?
Interesting about the rubber resists.
@grain elevator I had the impression that silicones were fairly harmless for the environment....I think I've thrown around a few too many terms, definitely doesn't have to be biodegradable, but would be good if when it does break down that its not leaching chemicals. Glass really is the most ideal. In the other thread I was wondering about pouring vitreous enamel, but I don't think that works either unfortunately.
 
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DREW WILEY

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It's meant to rip right off. Pourable silicones were designed to temporarily protect fragile printed circuit boards from handling. If they are squeezed between something tightly they'll retain their shape; but they don't have adhesive properties like thicker RTV silicones do. There was an entirely different kind of clear liquid sealant I used for hermetic bonding; but it was way too messy for any optical usage. But being retired, I'm not in the sealants business anymore, so might be a little behind what's currently available. At one time, I was given free samples of all kinds of things, and dedicated aerospace and tech suppliers were in this area too.

I did a LOT of experimenting, fully expecting that many would be bellyflops; but sometimes that's the only way you learn the truth about a product. But you have to watch what happens over years or even decades in certain cases. No serious industrial products ever come with time warranties, just with hard engineering specs. "Lifetime warranties" on sealants are total BS marketing and almost universally related to the cheapest goods. You have to read the fine print. Of course, I was doing all that testing not only for sake or personal usage, but because clients depended on me for competent non-BS advice; and at that time we held one of the largest selections of sealants around. It was only part of my job; I handled all kinds of other specialized product lines too. Had a big military, marine, architectural, and industrial customer base, so my employers were fully supportive of all my experimenting, even if it was for personal ends. Serious artists were in that mix too, even big photo labs.

Molding silicones and medical silicones are entirely different categories. I don't think they would be of interest to you. My wife worked in plastic surgery for about 8 yrs, which certainly has legitimate applications, and she was excellent at both stitching and certain kinds of diagnosis. But she got disgusted with the greed of some of the practitioners and moved on. These were all highly licensed real surgeons; but you've no doubt heard about fake ones too, who injected ordinary hardware store silicone into patients and turned them into looking and feeling like monsters once that broke apart in their bodies.

At times, it's really hard to know what's going on between a particular medium and an immersive sealant. I got involved with it in relation to the big Cibachromes I was making at the time, and had my own proprietary method of encapsulation which provided an exceptionally nice visual presentation. That was prior to today's thin permanent adhesive foils. I have gear for that too. But sometime back then, pourable potting solutions started being used within acrylic shells for Cibachrome. And the fact that oxygen was sealed out apparently greatly reduced the fading rate. But the fact that those were routinely installed under horribly high-UV projector lighting, popular in high-end venues at that time, resulted in a torture tradeoff hard to objectively analyze. But the process itself was ridiculously expensive and tricky.

There are just too many variables. I actually sold the sealants used to cement the correction lenses of the Hubble space telescope into their mounts, involving a product which would perform badly here, but apparently worked wonderfully in the oxygen-free vacuum of space. I didn't predict that - I just sold the stuff to them, according to their own specification. They were routine customers anyway. I won't mention what that was, cause it's fun to guess, being something improbable. They're still in the mega-telescope business, just ten minutes up the highway in a big unmarked building.

Enviro consequences? True "rubber-based" sealants are often self-curing and only outgas a little. Some are moisture-curing, absorbing humidity. After outgassing, these products tend to remain inert. But health consequences applying them all depends. That is what MSDS sheets are for. And how they finally break apart, and then potentially get into streams and so forth is more a topic for proper landfill assessment. Their relation to window manufacture and installation is a complex topic; but we were especially involved in that. And in that case too, an ideal sealant would remain watertight in fashion of a gasket material, but not so aggressively that it was not removable by some mechanical means (specialized equipment we both used and sold). Hope this is ample food for thought, so far. Good luck!
 
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jsmoove

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@DREW WILEY Thanks so much, this has been quite informative! It's crazy how much expertise is packed into this site, I love it.
I'm thinking I should probably head back in the photoceramic direction after all. It seems to be the solution to what I'm thinking. Need to visit some glassblowers in my area and learn about enamels.
 

Robert Maxey

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So I've been looking for an alternative to photoceramics, which processes are pretty complicated. My question now is..

In the long forgotten dark ages, I made a few ceramic tile "pictures" by mixing the desired glaze with a ferric sensitizer. Somewhere I still have some notes. I'll look about.

Anyway, what happens is ceramic glaze becomes light sensitive and when exposed, it becomes insoluble. After exposure, you wash away the unwanted bits, leaving an image formed from the chosen ceramic glaze. Fire that tile and you have a fairly stable image. Not good halftones, but line art works well. And it is easy to make huge murals in a home darkroom.

Or some such.

Good Luck.
 
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jsmoove

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@Robert Maxey Oh! I would be very interested in hearing more about this. Would it work on glass, or would the thermal expansion be an issue?
Hmm about the not-good halftones though, I'm looking to aim high on the resolution.
 

DREW WILEY

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High resolution continuous tone is done with high-power laser etching. A staggering equipment investment. I don't know if anyone yet has come up with a semi-permeable or semi-transparent resist system allowing independence from lasers. Probably not. But it might make an interesting "what if" research project.
 
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jsmoove

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Yes, the other option is photosensitive glass like Gaffer glass or Foturan, Gaffer glass rods go for $80 each, Foturan I think is expensive.
http://www.gafferglassusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=100
https://www.femtoprint.ch/ does < 1 µm resolution femtosecond laser etching, Which would just be a modification of the glass. Im sure this is super expensive too.
I'm definitely curious about non-expensive DIY, non-toxic photoceramic emulsions that are high resolution, I think it was mentioned in a previous post about Fuji Photoceram...but I think it's expensive too haha, and polymer based.
 
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Robert Maxey

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@Robert Maxey Oh! I would be very interested in hearing more about this. Would it work on glass, or would the thermal expansion be an issue?
Hmm about the not-good halftones though, I'm looking to aim high on the resolution.

I'll look for my notes.

Basically, I mixed an emulsion containing a heavy load of ceramic glaze. It was sensitized with a dichromate. Most likely potassium dichromate.

The glaze was applied to the tile and allowed to dry. Then a litho negative was held to the sensitized tile with a sheet of glass and exposed to strong UV with my plate burner. After a short time, the tile was washed and as i recall, dried. Where light hits the tile, it hardens; blocked areas washed away.

I once thought about this and realized scaling it up to huge sizes would be easy. Simply make an 8x10 or 8x8 litho and cut the litho into 2x2 inch squares and make another 8x8 litho and "print" those. Or make an 11x11 or 14x14 and cut that up to 1x1 inch squares. You can scale to huge sizes (make a floor or wall) with little effort as long as your lithos are sharp enough.

Handle all dichromates with care, Bob
 
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jsmoove

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That sounds accurate, I believe pyrofoto is also done with potassium dichromate.
I'd be curious to know what type of glaze works best, temperatures...etc. I don't yet have access to a kiln.
Another thing I had thought about for an alternative to dichromates was diazidostilbene, but other than the fact that it is damn expensive (seems to be a theme here) it says in the safety sheet that it is combustible/explosive and not to use it with heat: https://www.phototypie.fr/en/reactifs-photosensibles/14-diazidostilbene.html
 
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