Sigh. Just when you think you've got your safelight issues all figured out...

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OK. All I know is that the jumbo bulb is safe. I have used it for lith printing about 3 feet above my trays. Some of those prints take 30 minutes to process before I put it in the stop bath. No fog. Zero. None.

It's the only safelight I have ever used. I imagine since it's an item that is replaced once it burns out, the 'filter' that's built into the bulb is replaced at the same time. I can see how the filters used with regular incandescent bulbs or fluorescent tubes could fade with time and become unsafe.

- Thomas

Thomas, please note that a traditional commercial safelight is not fully safe and easy way. The traditional saying goes: "there is no safe safelight", and it's quite true, especially when using old technology. Even if you buy a commercial unit, you may and eventually will need to test it. The distance matters, the brand matters (some may be worse than others in filter quality), and the filters fade as time goes by, if they are incandescent/fluorescent based like many or most still are.

I may be repeating myself but I'm really love with LEDs and with a reason :D. They really don't practically produce wavelengths that would need to be filtered out. They are not perfect at all but every time I've tested leds with BW paper, I get much lower fog than with any commercial darkroom light I've tried. This may be because of filter fade present in the old units.
 

Theo43

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Thomas, will one of those 'jumbo' red bulbs fit into a typical (e.g. Premier) 5x7 safelight housing? If so, it would be a convenient and neat solution. Yes, do the testing to be sure!
Ted
 
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Probably not. It's pretty large; I'd estimate about 5" diameter.

But you don't have to. Just a regular round spun aluminum shop light will work brilliantly.

- Thomas

Thomas, will one of those 'jumbo' red bulbs fit into a typical (e.g. Premier) 5x7 safelight housing? If so, it would be a convenient and neat solution. Yes, do the testing to be sure!
Ted
 

Larry.Manuel

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Red LED bike tail lamp with NiMH batteries might be easy for you. I use a similar thing, with headband, and can see really well, and have tested for fog - none. I've linked to one so you can see what a typical one looks like. I find 2 AAA cells last 30+ hours on my bike in the linked lamp. See your local bike shop. This one is under CAN$6.00.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_...older_id=2534374302692895&bmUID=1257369987271
 

Anscojohn

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Red 25w, unfrosted, incandescent. About 2.5 meters above my head shooting straight upwards and bouncing off ceiling which is atleast 4m high. 5w, opaque, same position fogs nothing - of course I can barely see as well.
********
Drugstore red bulbs are rarely safe.
 

Anscojohn

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Make your own from red leds. They don't in practice produce wavelenghts shorter than yellow at all, so you are safe even without any filters. Filters can always fade etc.

If you want to be on super-safe side, use red leds with safelight filter :D.

This way you can use HUGE safelight levels, probably more than you even want.

I tested 625 nm 1-watt red leds (these: http://cgi.ebay.com/10-PC-1W-StrawH...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4d73a9f1 ) adjusted to a level that gives an enormous light level never normally needed in darkroom, and still I needed at least 5-10 minutes to show any fog at all. One of these leds is enough for even a larger darkroom, or you can use multiple in many places dimmed down to safe levels. If you don't like wires, you can use them battery-operated since they draw so low current. You won't probably use the whole 1-watt power. I used 600 mW in my test and it was more than ever needed.
*******
So how would a non-technical person like msyelf hook on of these gems up?
 

Anscojohn

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It's not that I thought the safelight was 100% safe - it's that the distance seemed relatively safe. By the time the light banks off the ceiling and hits the paper it's traveled atleast 15-20 ft. It was unsafe enough that it was probably muting my whites causing me to chase brightness around in my prints. Anyways, the 5w will have to do for now but I'm definitely on the hunt for some LED safelights. Thanks for the pointers to that specific LED, hrst.
******
White light is not safe. You can put it far away, but it still is not safe. Your red bulb is so inefficient it is passing actinic light.
 

ic-racer

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Wow, 4 pages on safelights. But it seems to me the best solution is to just get one from a place like Freestlye. Its about the cost of a box of paper. (25-35USD). Filters fade with time, and at those prices its like buying a filter and getting the rest of the assembly for free. (a Kodak safelight filter alone is 40-80 USD)
 
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clayne

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Wow, 4 pages on safelights. But it seems to me the best solution is to just get one from a place like Freestlye. Its about the cost of a box of paper. (25-35USD). Filters fade with time, and at those prices its like buying a filter and getting the rest of the assembly for free. (a Kodak safelight filter alone is 40-80 USD)

I think what you might be ignoring is that it's not necessarily the best idea to do that. There are other options and we're exploring them here in this thread.

LEDs are quite a good one.
 

polyglot

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OK. All I know is that the jumbo bulb is safe. I have used it for lith printing about 3 feet above my trays. Some of those prints take 30 minutes to process before I put it in the stop bath. No fog. Zero. None.

It's the only safelight I have ever used. I imagine since it's an item that is replaced once it burns out, the 'filter' that's built into the bulb is replaced at the same time. I can see how the filters used with regular incandescent bulbs or fluorescent tubes could fade with time and become unsafe.

- Thomas

See, this is where people are missing the point of LEDs. They do not have and do not require a filter; because of the nature of how they work, they produce a very very narrow spectrum. An incandescent bulb is the opposite, in that it produces broad-spectrum (black-body) radiation, which includes significant components at higher frequencies that must be filtered, and no filtering is perfect. Filters also typically degrade when they're absorbing photons, hence their replacement schedule. Without a filter, the LED will keep working (and not fogging paper) practically forever - their half-brightness lifetime is often on the order of 50,000 hours (they will be half as bright after 6 years of 24x7 use).

An LED works by exciting atoms in a semiconductor (raising an electron to a higher energy level) and then when the electron falls back down to its default level, a photon is emitted. The wavelength of a photon is defined by the energy that went into it, therefore specifying what the LED is made of (specifically, the differences between energy levels in the material) will specify the wavelength(s) produced.

It takes a certain minimum amount of energy in one photon to activate a silver halide molecule and form a latent image - any photon of insufficient energy (too red) will just get absorbed as heat or be reflected. It's practically the same process as what happens in an LED but in reverse.

Your garden-variety red LED has a particular band-gap between its electron energy levels. This energy is smaller than the activation energy of a silver halide molecule in photographic paper[1], therefore none of the photons from a red LED can fog the paper. You could leave the LED on in your paper safe for a week and the paper wouldn't fog.

If you filter an incandescent light, you might lose 50% of the red photons and get rid of 99.9% of the blue/green/UV ones. But that just means that fogging is 1000x slower than it would be with an unexposed bulb, which is still not particularly slow.

In terms of a solution for a non-electronics-nerd, a $20 off-the-shelf LED safelight is an easy and reliable option. It will probably never wear out in your lifetime. I also like the bike-light idea - they're cheap and ubiquitous, though buying a new set of AAs every 30 hours will add up - nothing like paper costs, but certainly more than $20 for the mains-powered one over the years.


[1] panchromatic film adds sensitising agents (don't ask me the chemistry, I don't know) that make them capable of being activated by photons of lower energy / longer wavelength, i.e. more red. Likewise IR-sensitive films have other sensitising agents that allow them to react to photons of even lower energy still.
 
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Not missing the point. I just said that I use what I know works. I've had the same bulb for years now. I'm sure LEDs would be fantastic, and I do know that their output can be a narrow portion of the color spectrum.

I like buying finished products that I know work. This means I can focus on the important thing - printing! I don't even want to think about my safelight.

When the bulb I have now burns out, I'll look for a commercially available LED safelight. Until then, may there be many safely illuminated hours in the darkroom for you all.

- Thomas
 

Nicholas Lindan

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I used the big round bulb safelights for many years, and I agree with Thomas, they don't fog. They also produce very nice wide angle illumination and since the bulb is big the light isn't as harsh as one might expect from a bare bulb.

After 10 years or so I found the paint they were dipped in started to flake off around the neck of the bulb. It's pretty obvious when this starts to happen.

These days I use the big Kodak 'D' safelights with OC filters - available for not much on ebay if one waits long enough.

On the subject of Xmas tree bulbs, try this one:

Dead Link Removed
 

Theo43

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I have ordered a couple of these: Dead Link Removed The spectral graph looks good; we shall see!
Ted
 

BetterSense

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I use a 1W red Cree LED at about 200mA for a small darkroom. Brightness can be very good with no fogging at all. The proper way to drive an LED is with a constant current source; using resistors is rather crude.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1776
making a constant current source

3800889437_e84ea40d5d_b.jpg
 
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Cymen

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clayne

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Check out www.superbrightleds.com/specs/E27-W24.htm I've had good luck so far with their red bulbs. They have all the circuitry built in. Just screw them into a fixture. You don't need to build any circuitry at all.

FYI, I ordered the wide and narrow versions of this red LED safelight from SBLEDs. Great supplier - they shipped very fast and I just plugged the wide one in and started a simplified Kodak test. 10+ minute pass with flying colors (ADOX Vario Classic and Foma 312 RC) plus it's as bright if not brighter than the unsafe 25w dipped bulb I was using before.

Highly recommended and simple solution.
 

d.reed

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This thread hasn't been active for a while, but I thought I'd share a simple, cheap solution for a red safelight. I've been using these for some time while I lith print and haven't had any issues. Bear in mind I haven't worried about a fog test.
This is just a led pushlight with some red masking film (aka ruby lith), which you can get at most art supply stores, taped on. It can be stuck on the wall with velcro and makes a great darkroom flashlight too.
 

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