Shutter cocking problem on an SQ-Ai; Everything is Locked

[aldevo]

Well, I think KEH has somehow managed to sell me my 3rd straight defective SQ-Ai body...but before coming to that (unpleasant) conclusion I thought I'd try this forum.

Right now it does not appear that the shutter on my SQ-Ai is cocking correctly. That is a truly miserable state of affairs because the film back cannot be removed nor can a lens on an SQ-Ai body without the shutter being cocked

I'm hoping that, somehow, I've managed to forget a step and that there is *something* I can do to free up this system. Here is a description of the state of the system:

- The body is a Bronica SQ-Ai

- The film back is a 120I w/ 120 film insert and the film back is attached to the body. No film is in the back. The dark slide has been removed but the Film Back cannot be removed. I have tried to use the Film Back release button w/ no success. I can open the film back using the back cover release buttons and remove the insert, but the film back, itself, cannot be removed from the body.

- I have a PS 80mm lens attached to the camera. The letter "A" is visible; therefore the shutter is *not* in (T) exposure mode (i.e. the exposure) should be governed by the selected shutter speed. The lens cannot be removed; depressing the Lens Release Button and attempting to turn the lens counter-clockwise does not enable me to remove the lens.

- The Mirror Lock-up Switch Lever is set to "N" (normal), therefore indicating that the mirror is NOT locked up

- The Multi-Exposure lever is set to the vertical position (this means multi-exposure mode is *not* in use and cocking the shutter should advance the film)

An inability to remove the lens and film back is indicative of the shutter not cocking. Even after inserting the dark slide, I cannot remove the Film Back by depressing the film back release button.

Now for the state of the shutter...here's where it gets complicated

1) Before turning the Film Winding Crank the diaphragm and shutter appear to be closed and the view through the finder is dark
2) When I begin to turn the Film Winding Lever, the crank will turn about 180 degrees before a "click" occurs. The Manual Film Winder rotates as the crank is being turned. Upon reaching that "click" the diaphragm and shutter are still closed and the viewfinder remains dark.
3) Contiinung to turn the Film Winding Lever (yes, it is possible to continue turning it), the iris blades of the leaf shutter begin to open and the finder becomes increasingly bright. After about 10-15 degrees the iris blades are fully open. The Manual Film Winder again rotates while the Film Winding Lever is turned.
4) Continuing to turn the Film Winding Lever another 15-20 degrees (during which the Manual Film Winder continues to rotate) will result in a loud clicking/snapping that I would normally associate with the shutter releasing.

At any point throughout this process, depressing the shutter release is possible, but nothing happens apart from the lighting of an LED in the view finder indicating an exposure cannot be made.

What happens after #4 is where it gets REAL complicated...because it varies, allbeit consistently.

5) After the first cycle of 1-4 above, the diaphragm will close completely after 4.
6) After the second cycle of 1-4 above, the diaphragm does not completely close after 4. In fact, the diaphragm appears to stay in its stopped down position (i.e. the diaphragm opening seem s to reflect whatever the aperture setting is no the lens). After several seconds, there is a soft click and the diaphragm closes completely

The pattern observed in 5 and 6 repeat indefinitely

By the way: I *did* attempt to test the camer with a roll of film loaded. After loading the film, turning the Film Winding Crank appeared to advance the film but the Exposure Counter did not advance from "S" to "1". The camera body is newly-received from KEH. The initial test with a roll of film was the first time I attempted to use that body. Although I am relatively new to the Bronica SQ-Ai, I did receive two earlier bodies from KEH. I was able to successfully run rolls of film through both the bodies (they were returned for other reasons) - so I am somewhat familiar with the SQ-Ai.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[aldevo]

Hmmm....I think I see the problem...

...and I am one unhappy camper

Looking very closely at the mirror lockup switch...the outside is cracked and I can see where somebody tried to apply an epoxy. I suspect that the mirror is permanently locked-up and the prior owner tried (successfully) to hide this from KEH.

Turning the mirror lockup ever does not result in any clicking; it spins freely from N->S->C.

So much for an allegedly "EX" body.

 

[Uncle Goose]

Send it back with a note explaining the problem and what you see on the body. Remember that companies like these get a lot of camera's trough their hands and it's always possible some hidden flaws go trough unnoticed.

 

[aldevo]

I'll have to speak to the salesman first; this one will be messy.

Unfortunately, having a perfectly working lens and film back "held hostage" by the defective body is going to complicate matters...

Truly the sum of all fears...interlocks, indeed.

 

[Brook Hill]

Just a couple of points which you may already be aware of:-
1. You must have a film in the camera to be able to cock the shutter.
2. You can only remove the back when the dark slide is in place. I have found on occasions that with the dark slide in place you still can-not remove the back and this is because the little nib at the bottom of the dark slide is going in the wrong side of the slot. I have found by pulling the slide out a bit and the pushing it back with a bit of side pressure in the direction of the back (or to the front but usually towards the back) gets it seated properly and the back comes off.
3.You could try setting the multi-exposure lever to multiple exposure which should cock the shutter without winding on the film but I suspect you will need a film loaded or least the backing paper.
4. Just another thought, are the batteries good? The shutter wont fire with flat batteries.

Tony

 

[aldevo]

Just a couple of points which you may already be aware of:-
1. You must have a film in the camera to be able to cock the shutter.
2. You can only remove the back when the dark slide is in place. I have found on occasions that with the dark slide in place you still can-not remove the back and this is because the little nib at the bottom of the dark slide is going in the wrong side of the slot. I have found by pulling the slide out a bit and the pushing it back with a bit of side pressure in the direction of the back (or to the front but usually towards the back) gets it seated properly and the back comes off.
3.You could try setting the multi-exposure lever to multiple exposure which should cock the shutter without winding on the film but I suspect you will need a film loaded or least the backing paper.
4. Just another thought, are the batteries good? The shutter wont fire with flat batteries.

Tony

Hi Brook,

I can definitely vouch for 2,3, and 4 being taken care of...I definitely tried to remove the back when the dark slide was in place, I was definitely in single-exposure mode, and the battery check light indicates the batteries are fine (and the ME Prism Finder S's meter is working like a champ).

I suppose it's always possible I did not load the film correctly...I guess I could always try another roll. But that Mirror Lock Up switch is spinning freely - which I do not take as a good sign.

 

[Tony-S]

I think you ought to give Tamron a call and see about shipping it to them to have a look. I understand they provide free estimates, but you should chat with someone there to be certain.

 

[DWThomas]

In (there was a url link here which no longer exists)about Bronica difficulties I posted a picture showing where to fake the interlock to get the back off. It was on an SQ-A, but since the backs are interchangeable, I would assume it should work on the -Ai. You need something like about a 0.5 mm jeweler's screwdriver. You need to push in about 3mm or so.

That might get your back off; not sure what happens after that. All in all, I'd say it sounds pretty well stuffed. Maybe if the MLU lever is free wheeling, you could remove it altogether and turn the shaft with pliers to get to a known state?

I have a body where the shutter release won't work and I'd like to look inside some day, but I admit I'm not sure I want to see how many links, levers and pinions, etc. are jumbled up inside those bodies! My experience with this bad body was that with the back off and the mirror up, I was able to prod a link up in the left front of the camera to get to where I could remove the lens -- YMMV!

DaveT

 

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, consider that the shutter can wind and fire whether the mirror is up or down. So, might not be related to your prob.

Jon

 

[yurihuta]

fear not. If KEH does not come through, try these guys

http://kohscamera.com/

The owner is a former Tamron/Bronica repairman and purchased most/all? of their Bronica parts for his shop. I have used him when I had SQAi gear and he is fast and very reasonable.

Unfortunately, having a perfectly working lens and film back "held hostage" by the defective body is going to complicate matters...

Truly the sum of all fears...interlocks, indeed.

 

[aldevo]

Well, I have an update and the news is good...

I have succeeded in removing BOTH the lens and film back from the distressed body.

DWThomas's suggestion worked perfectly (thank you, sir!). I pulled the darkslide, inserted a small jeweler's flathead screwdriver and tripped the catch and was able to remove the film back.

As for the lens...it pays to RTFM ;-)

To quote p.26:

"Both the main camera body and lens must be in the "cocked" conditon to attach or remove the lens".

As noted in my initial post it was possible to cock the lens (note my mention of the leaf blades opening on the lens shutter). I simply rotated the Film Winding Lever to the appropriate position, depressed the Lens Release Button and the lens and camera had a happy parting of the ways.

Incidentally, the camera tech at KEH I spoke with (yes, spoke with, courtesy of the salesman) could recommend NEITHER of these steps and told me I had to send everything back; that it was hopeless to disengage either the back or the lens.

I guess they were reckoning I didn't have access to APUG.

So now, I'm kind of curious as to whether I can tell what might be up with the body itself.

 

[aldevo]

In (there was a url link here which no longer exists)about Bronica difficulties I posted a picture showing where to fake the interlock to get the back off. It was on an SQ-A, but since the backs are interchangeable, I would assume it should work on the -Ai. You need something like about a 0.5 mm jeweler's screwdriver. You need to push in about 3mm or so.

That might get your back off; not sure what happens after that. All in all, I'd say it sounds pretty well stuffed. Maybe if the MLU lever is free wheeling, you could remove it altogether and turn the shaft with pliers to get to a known state?

I have a body where the shutter release won't work and I'd like to look inside some day, but I admit I'm not sure I want to see how many links, levers and pinions, etc. are jumbled up inside those bodies! My experience with this bad body was that with the back off and the mirror up, I was able to prod a link up in the left front of the camera to get to where I could remove the lens -- YMMV!

DaveT

It indeed worked as you suggested. Thanks.

Looking at the body now from the front with no lens or film back,,

- The first 120 degrees of Film Winding Lever motion do not produce any real effect (a series of audible clicks, as if a spring is being tensioned)
- The next 60 degrees results in the light block at the back of the camera swinging down to its stops
- The next 45 degrees (or so) result in the mirror swinging down to its stops. There is a somewhat pronounced click at the end of this motion
- An additional 10-15 degrees results in the mirror lowering a bit more followed by another more pronounced click
- After an additional 15-20 degrees of motion the shutter seems to release with a snap and the light block and mirror return to their uplifted positions.

 

[glbeas]

Sounds like the shutter trip linkage has shorted or jammed in. Nothing you want to mess with. KEH is really good at handling stuff like this. Hopefully the next body will be a good one.

 

[aldevo]

Yes, their emailing me a "call tag" for FedEx tomorrow.

I'm just immensely disappointed that they've sold me three garbage bodies in a row...

 

[Tony-S]

Have you considered buying from Koh's Camera? They have a couple of SQ-Ai's and apparently specialize in Bronica service and parts.

 

[aldevo]

Have you considered buying from Koh's Camera? They have a couple of SQ-Ai's and apparently specialize in Bronica service and parts.

I have not because it is a brand new purchase covered by KEH's 30-day warranty.

They have to fix it or offer me a replacement free-of-charge. I am certainly not letting KEH off the hook after all the accumulated aggravation...