Should we use expired film or is it garbage ?

Kodachromeguy said:

So far, my 1989 expiration 120 Panatomic-X is still fine. But it has been frozen since new and has not cycled through thawing and freezing. I agree that buying decades old 120 film via eBay would be a crap shoot. Why bother? Just buy new film. The 120 Kentmere is surprisingly reasonable price (cheap) in USA.

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I have also had decent results from 35mm Panatomic-X. But it is more grainy than when fresh, and I certainly would not seek out any more rolls. It's too late.

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My wife's the MF shooter in the family, but she goes through long periods of not shooting, as a result a lot of out of date film. I know now to buy her film in much more limited quantities. We always buy new and cold store. In the past we've had numbers and words bleeding onto the film from the backing paper (Kodak), or a crinkly, static type of pattern from the backing paper (Foma). Not all the old film has backing paper issues, but it's a crap shoot. Shame, because the old film itself was fine. If me, I just use the old film for personal projects, and view any weird side effects, as part of the creative process, sort of like flare in an image. But you know these medium format folks and their big negatives, they want perfection! Currently sitting on probably 50-100 rolls of out of date MF. Not sure what to do with it; maybe put it on eBay with proper disclosure?

A few years ago I was given two 500 foot spools of Ilford Orthochromatic 35mm copy film (dated 1970). At about the same time I aquired two 156 foot spools of the same film (marked as Ilford Orthset 1970) in a 4.75 inch wide format. I was told that the nominal speeed was 1.5 ISO and after a little experimentation confirmed this with my home-grown Rodinal. These films have contributed to a resurgence of my Analogue photography. The very low speed requires exposures in the range 2 to 30 seconds so I now always use a tripod. The films are effectively grain free and with dilute developer produce wonderful negatives. Their Orthochromatic response contributes to a "look" that I hadn't experienced before. I now realize that the moderate fog (with over development) is acting like a pre-flash in contrast control. I have much to learn from these materials but so far, the results have been very rewarding.
My recommendation when using these films is make sure you have plenty so testing is possible before shooting important subjects and consider the age and unusual original purpose to be an asset. These films will never be made again.

Steve York said:

My wife's the MF shooter in the family, but she goes through long periods of not shooting, as a result a lot of out of date film. I know now to buy her film in much more limited quantities. We always buy new and cold store. In the past we've had numbers and words bleeding onto the film from the backing paper (Kodak), or a crinkly, static type of pattern from the backing paper (Foma). Not all the old film has backing paper issues, but it's a crap shoot. Shame, because the old film itself was fine. If me, I just use the old film for personal projects, and view any weird side effects, as part of the creative process, sort of like flare in an image. But you know these medium format folks and their big negatives, they want perfection! Currently sitting on probably 50-100 rolls of out of date MF. Not sure what to do with it; maybe put it on eBay with proper disclosure?

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Have you tried a 5 minute water presoak with agitation on the out of date 120? Rumor is, it might help alleviate the backing paper pattern issue.

Steve York said:

My wife's the MF shooter in the family, but she goes through long periods of not shooting, as a result a lot of out of date film. I know now to buy her film in much more limited quantities. We always buy new and cold store. In the past we've had numbers and words bleeding onto the film from the backing paper (Kodak), or a crinkly, static type of pattern from the backing paper (Foma). Not all the old film has backing paper issues, but it's a crap shoot. Shame, because the old film itself was fine. If me, I just use the old film for personal projects, and view any weird side effects, as part of the creative process, sort of like flare in an image. But you know these medium format folks and their big negatives, they want perfection! Currently sitting on probably 50-100 rolls of out of date MF. Not sure what to do with it; maybe put it on eBay with proper disclosure?

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Hi, it's me. Your new best friend. It also so happens that I love shooting out of date MF rolls of film.

Steve York said:

Currently sitting on probably 50-100 rolls of out of date MF. Not sure what to do with it; maybe put it on eBay with proper disclosure?

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Those rolls need a rigourous regimen of controlled testing in the high desert, where humidity is maintained at the ideal 20-30% and sunlight never fails. I‘d give them a happy research home for these trials!

I would personally not use expired film. If i had any, I'd sell them on the auction site and buy fresh film.

I have a pile of expired fuji Superia 35mm in my fridge. The first 4 or 5 rolls were fun, but i'm excited to be rid of it, as its fairly unpredictable and either looks like its fresh, or really foggy and useless. I have gambled on some other expired stuff like some 2000s PMZ pro 1000 that I love, and a few boxes of provia for my 4x5, but from here on out, unless its known good cold stored stuff, im probably gonna keep to buying new so I know what to expect!

thomasossi said:

I have a pile of expired fuji Superia 35mm in my fridge. The first 4 or 5 rolls were fun, but i'm excited to be rid of it, as its fairly unpredictable and either looks like its fresh, or really foggy and useless. I have gambled on some other expired stuff like some 2000s PMZ pro 1000 that I love, and a few boxes of provia for my 4x5, but from here on out, unless its known good cold stored stuff, im probably gonna keep to buying new so I know what to expect!

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Hi, it's me, your new best friend...

I sometimes buy film in-date because I get a good deal on it, but then don't use it until it's slightly expired (a couple years at most). I keep it frozen, and it's fine. But I don't really get the attraction to decades out of date film, especially since it's so often just as expensive as fresh film now. I'd rather shoot something I know will work well.

On the other hand, I have a friend who pretty much only shoots heavily expired slide film. His images generally come out with extreme color casts, poor exposure, etc. I don't get it, but he likes it, and to each their own.

Cholentpot said:

Hi, it's me, your new best friend...

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Ha! Im getting down to the end of the low speed stuff, but still have about 10 rolls of 800 and 4 of 1600 speed too bad you either have to pull them or shoot them knowing they'll be heavily fogged.

armadsen said:

I sometimes buy film in-date because I get a good deal on it, but then don't use it until it's slightly expired (a couple years at most). I keep it frozen, and it's fine. But I don't really get the attraction to decades out of date film, especially since it's so often just as expensive as fresh film now. I'd rather shoot something I know will work well.

On the other hand, I have a friend who pretty much only shoots heavily expired slide film. His images generally come out with extreme color casts, poor exposure, etc. I don't get it, but he likes it, and to each their own.

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See, I don't want to pay anything at all for expired film. I mean I'll pay a bit for it but honestly it's not worth anything. That's why I shoot it. It's cheap. Used to be cheaper.

retina_restoration said:

So, it's worth noting that the format of the film in question matters: expired 35mm film and sheet films are often very usable even 20 years or more after their expiration date — especially slow B&W films like Panatomic-X. But I won't touch expired 120 roll films, since it's a well-documented fact that they simply don't age well when the film comes in contact with the backing paper. Sure, 50 years ago this wasn't so much of a problem, but we've seen that modern backing papers are nowhere near as inert, and they eventually interact with the emulsion to produce unwanted effects.

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Agreed! I've been dealing with mottling with some of my older 120 films. No problems with Fuji, but Ultrafine (I believe was Kentmere) and Kodak have been all splotchy. As you noted, I think some changes made in the last couple decades to paper and dyes are the likely culprit. The knowledge base of analog photography by the old manufacturers started dying off. Sheet and 35mm films can be dealt with PKR for fog issues for results similar to when they were new. We had a bunch of PXP 100' rolls from the 80's at the school I was working at (~6 years ago.) With the "special sauce" we made from Potassium Bromide results were completely normal including base fog.

UsedFilmCameras said:

As you noted, I think some changes made in the last couple decades to paper and dyes are the likely culprit.

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Plus the correspnding changes in the film emusions and, in some cases, base substrates.
All the backing paper issues are a result of interaction between all the components, along with the interactions with things like changes in shipping and storage and retailing.

I think the reason I assume it's to do with the backing paper is because the same emulsions in films without backing paper haven't been a problem in my experience. Like I bought a bunch of "Ultrafine" house branded 120 films and bulk 100' 35mm rolls. No problems with the bulk 35, 120 is now blotchy as (insert expletive here).

What seems new here, is I can't remember in the "film days" this ever happening. I used outdated films of all sorts for decades. And don't recall having any blotchy 120 films, or Kodak and numbers showing on an image.

UsedFilmCameras said:

What seems new here, is I can't remember in the "film days" this ever happening. I used outdated films of all sorts for decades. And don't recall having any blotchy 120 films, or Kodak and numbers showing on an image.

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It did happen - just less frequently. It was a known phenomena back in the 1970s into the early 1980s when I was most involved with the film development, professional photography and photographic retail world.
And so much has changed since then - emulsions, substrates, paper, ink, printing systems, shipping and storage systems, usage patterns.
Kodak came close to shutting down 120 film or printing on the backing paper of 120 film when they finally ran out of their huge inventory of pre-bankruptcy produced paper and despite spending huge amounts of resources almost couldn't find 3rd party who could produce a modern replacement for it that would work with all of their black and white, colour negative and colour transparency films.