Shooting in harsh midday sun

[Laci Toth]

Hello everyone!

I’m thinking how you guys shoot in full midday sun during summer to produce nice negs?
I used to live in England and Denmark in the past 6 years and I started film photography over there so I mostly shot on overcast or cloudy days and even when the sun was out it was never that strong and I didn’t even realized how it can take a huge effect.
Now as I moved to Hungary where the sunshine can be really harsh for a long period over the year I have to find out how to shoot in these conditions. Probably it’s not the best time during the day when shooting on black and white but as the weather condition is mostly very bright I need a solution, some advice how you guys do this.
I went out for a walk the other day and it was overcast but when the sun was out the frames became quite a challenge to edit and they didn’t come out well after all.
As it’s only the beginning of spring the summer conditions will be even more hard to tame.
I’m thinking of using nd filter and/or polarizing filter to somehow keep this on track but I’m not sure if it’s a good idea.

 

[grain elevator]

Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights, as has been written so many times. In practice, metering for the shadows can take many forms. In terms of the sunny 16 method it means that you rarely expose for full sun (f/16 and shutter speed reciprocal if film iso, or EV 15 (100)). Instead, as soon as there's a bit of a shadow in your scene, you expose more generously. With a reflective meter, point it toward shadows and close down a stop or two from there, or don't, depending on how dark you want those shadows.
Develop not too much if you want to scan - your scanner still needs to be able to penetrate the highlights. For darkroom printing, I can often get away with normal dev times, which I use because I usually have lower contrast scenes on the same rolls.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use the box speed and if I want more shadow detail, it put the shadow detail in Zone 2, Zone 3 or Zone 4 [based on box speed] and develop normally. That lets me mix all types of photographs on a roll of film.

 

[awty]

As per Mr Elevator says.
You need to keep within a couple of stops of your shadows if you want to have easy usable detail in them.
Its better if you can keep your pictures within 6 or 7 stops between the highlights and shadow, makes for easier work. So take shots out side in the sun, with some light in the shadows or take it in the shade with not much highlights to burn in.
Also go with it, use a Red, orange or yellow filter.
I envy people who live in places where you can take pictures of high contrast subjects in the middle of the day. I get EV19's to deal with.

 

[Craig75]

I find it a pain to shoot in midday sun - flat boring light that needs loads of work to turn it into something more interesting. On those days i shoot early in the morning or late afternoon early evening and use midday to look for interesting locations to come back to later

 

[guangong]

There is a difference between mid day and bright sun. Mid day the light comes from a vertical direction so lighting not very interesting. Use this time to take a break with a nice lunch and a drink. Before and after, follow advice offered above for bright sunny days.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Laci!

I can't speak to the filters you want to use they might work ? some people love the look they provide. (don't forget the tripod, filters eat light)
what developer do you want to use ? can you get your hands on a Vit c developer, they are typically lower contrast and might be helpful
in high contrast lighting like mid day sun... I can't stand xtol but it might work for you... or if you are used to caffenol c use that.
if I can also suggest. bracket your exposures a few stops over and a few stops under exposed for a few rolls and when you develop them
do the same bracket your development times so you have some rolls that are processed for more time and others for less... and develop a roll that is "normal" to use as a comparison between the other ones and make prints and decide what look you like the best ..
sorry for suggesting you do homework
have a nice bright day !
John

 

[Laci Toth]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!
I shot on Delta 400 back in England and the aforementioned photos were also on Delta. I wanted to switch to FP4 and from DD-X to Rodinal anyway so it might help.
I always drop pins on google map where should I go back and take the shot if I’m passing by and don’t have time or the timing is just not right. I sometimes wake up early or go back before the sunset or not long afterwards to shoot.
So I think it’ll be even more of a habit from now on.
I always meter for the shadows but as the sun is so bright here I think I don’t want to ruin more negatives.
I’ve to rethink how I’ll shoot and when as the summer is really long and without clouds and it really make sense when to shoot.
I’m still wondering though about the outcome if I’d use filters nd and/or polarizing in case I don’t have the possibility to go back when visiting a city or an area.

 

[grain elevator]

ND filters won't help, the make the shadows darker just as much as the bright parts, the ratio remains the same. Polarizer could help in certain situations, look through one to assess. The common yellow, orange, red filters increase contrast between shade and direct sunlight, because shade is mostly lit by blueish light from the sky. A blue filter could help. But it also makes for bright skies. I don't think it's necessary.
If course you need to assess if the pictures from mid-day sun are what you want. The light tends to be nicer earlier or later, but still for some things mid-day sun could be what one wants.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

As it’s only the beginning of spring the summer conditions will be even more hard to tame.

You might benefit from Thonton's Two Bath.

 

[MattKing]

Open sky is a wonderful source of light - work in the shade whenever possible!
More generally though, decide whether those shadows really do contain detail that matters to you.
In many cases, everything of interest is in the mid-tones or highlights. If that is the cases, base your exposure decisions on them, and let the shadows provide weight and mystery to your results.

 

[Laci Toth]

Open sky is a wonderful source of light - work in the shade whenever possible!
More generally though, decide whether those shadows really do contain detail that matters to you.
In many cases, everything of interest is in the mid-tones or highlights. If that is the cases, base your exposure decisions on them, and let the shadows provide weight and mystery to your results.

While I was reading all the responses I was thinking about the same that I can sacrifice the shadows in certain situations.

 

[Laci Toth]

ND filters won't help, the make the shadows darker just as much as the bright parts, the ratio remains the same.

Yes, but isn’t it better to add an nd? I imagine it’s like tweaking down the knob of the light source so the ratio remains the same but the highlights are less into the face and I might loose some of the shadow detail but it won’t blow out the highlights. I don’t know I’m just wondering.
So if I’d just expose for the highlights without any filter would it be the same than to expose for the highlights with an nd filter on? So the two would look the same just the shutter speed would change?

 

[MattKing]

So if I’d just expose for the highlights without any filter would it be the same than to expose for the highlights with an nd filter on? So the two would look the same just the shutter speed would change?

Yes - or the aperture would change.

 

[Laci Toth]

Yes - or the aperture would change.

Yes.

 

[Kino]

You might benefit from Thonton's Two Bath.

+1
Some sort of compensating developer would work...

 

[awty]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!
I shot on Delta 400 back in England and the aforementioned photos were also on Delta. I wanted to switch to FP4 and from DD-X to Rodinal anyway so it might help.
I always drop pins on google map where should I go back and take the shot if I’m passing by and don’t have time or the timing is just not right. I sometimes wake up early or go back before the sunset or not long afterwards to shoot.
So I think it’ll be even more of a habit from now on.
I always meter for the shadows but as the sun is so bright here I think I don’t want to ruin more negatives.
I’ve to rethink how I’ll shoot and when as the summer is really long and without clouds and it really make sense when to shoot.
I’m still wondering though about the outcome if I’d use filters nd and/or polarizing in case I don’t have the possibility to go back when visiting a city or an area.

I like FP4 for bright sun. Its really not that big an issue when outdoors, its a bigger hassle when your indoors and have a big window looking into bright light to deal with.
If its bright and sunny, go with it, make the viewer feel the brightness,
Heres a couple of mid day shots.
Cain by Paul Fitz, on Flickr
Rock Pool at Midday by Paul Fitz, on Flickr

Or you can go more extreme and use a orange filter and fade the highlights when printing. Detail was there on the neg.
Deepwater Station. by Paul Fitz, on Flickr

 

[John Bragg]

I rate HP5+ @ ei200, meter carefully and develop in Ilfotec HC (or HC-110) Dilution H as a compensating developer and agitate less.

Sculpted tree stump, Charlestown, Cornwall. by E.J. Bragg, on Flickr

Lanzarote building detail (an exercise in whites) by E.J. Bragg, on Flickr

First example in Cornwall UK. Second in Lanzarote, Canary Islands.

 

[Laci Toth]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas!
I’ll experiment and will see what works for me.

 

[Vaughn]

I like working with the light as I find it...I do not want to change it into some other kind of light. Experiment, make more mistakes, and have fun!

 

[guangong]

This thread had some very fine interesting photos. What a talented bunch.

 

[jeffreyg]

Living in sunny south Florida we have "midday sun" most of the year so I prefer to photograph early in the morning or evening as well as still life in a room that we have askylight. My best "technical advice" is to find a shady spot and have a cold beer or gin and tonic and wait for the clouds.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

 

[Paul Howell]

When I was a working PJ, I covered many parts of the world, anytime of the or day or night, only a few times I did stop shooting because of weather. When shooting in bright sun, noon time, depends on where you are shooting, here is the low desert in the summer the light can be bright but very flat as there is so much reflected light. In general, expose for what most interesting part of the shot, what will tell the story and fix the rest in the dark room or in LR.

 

[MattKing]

If you have control over the subject, look for reflective surfaces that reflect light into and tend to fill those shadows.
Remember to take into account the colour of any such reflected light - even when using black and white, if filters or spectral sensitivity of the film are involved.

 

[wiltw]

If you 'have to' shoot in the bright and contrasty conditions of direct sun, you can use techniques employed by some...

• use supplmental flash to reduce the shadow contrast, so the scene is not as contrasty
• 'create shade'...shoot under an overhead building in the shade, or even under a translucent white panel

You can even combine the techniques...put the human subject into a shaded area, but with direct sunlit surrounding, then use flash to brighten the shaded area, which would otherwise be -3EV to -4EV darker than the sunny surroundings!
You do not have to stop shooting during the peak of day.