Shocked at how much bulk TMY-2 costs

[Brad Deputy]

Personally I feel like a good amount of "gouging" in price also comes from the vendor.

One of my local camera shops sells Fuji 400 (the Kodak UltraMAX variant) for $21 a pack of 3. She said they sell out almost as soon as they arrive, and they still make a profit. She figures it's incentive for folks who just bring their film there to process anyway.

Look around at any other on-line vendor; B&H, Freestyle, etc, and they're anywhere from 2-4x that price.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Personally I feel like a good amount of "gouging" in price also comes from the vendor.

One of my local camera shops sells Fuji 400 (the Kodak UltraMAX variant) for $21 a pack of 3. She said they sell out almost as soon as they arrive, and they still make a profit. She figures it's incentive for folks who just bring their film there to process anyway.

Look around at any other on-line vendor; B&H, Freestyle, etc, and they're anywhere from 2-4x that price.

Exactly. That's what I meant when I wrote about business ethics.
Kudos for your local camera shop.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Personally I feel like a good amount of "gouging" in price also comes from the vendor.

One of my local camera shops sells Fuji 400 (the Kodak UltraMAX variant) for $21 a pack of 3. She said they sell out almost as soon as they arrive, and they still make a profit. She figures it's incentive for folks who just bring their film there to process anyway.

Look around at any other on-line vendor; B&H, Freestyle, etc, and they're anywhere from 2-4x that price.

That may well be so, but the manufacturing companies are not plotting to upset the special few who are the same special few who complain about the manufacturers gouging them.

 

[Radost]

That may well be so, but the manufacturing companies are not plotting to upset the special few who are the same special few who complain about the manufacturers gouging them.

Yet the proof is in the pudding. ektachrome is 3 times cheaper for cinema than the same for still shooters.
Rolling it in to a cassette is not 3 times the price. If this is the case can I get some portra400 400’ feet for $316?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yet the proof is in the pudding. ektachrome is 3 times cheaper for cinema than the same for still shooters.
Rolling it in to a cassette is not 3 times the price. If this is the case can I get some portra400 400’ feet for $316?

Those decisions are based on marketing knowledge which none of us is privy to, and not based on Kodak's personal attack on the tin hatted few.

 

[MattKing]

One of the members here, Andrew Bacon, is himself an online retailer who buys from the same sources as B&H. He has posted that the wholesale cost he pays is essentially the same for many products as B&H sells it for at retail - their profit margin must be tiny, and flowing only from the small discounts they enjoy as a result of the volume they buy.
Back in my retail days, one of the big stores I worked for depended on the 2% deduction for ten day fast payment for much of the profit on high volume items like Kodachrome slide film, and had everything set up to try to ensure, as much as possible, that stock was sold within that ten days so the cash wasn't tied up.
If a store is selling for much less than B&H on stuff like common films, they either:
1) have made mistakes in their pricing;
2) they have old stock, and any new replacement stock will sell for much more;
3) they managed to get a special deal on some film, in return for buying something else. In that case, any new replacement stock will sell for much more; or
4) they are pricing film at a loss, in hopes of making money on other sales - a not very sustainable practice in the modern world.
If you are running a retail business, you need to have each and every transaction average out to include a substantial profit in order to pay staff, pay rent, and pay for everything else needed to keep your doors open.

 

[Radost]

Those decisions are based on marketing knowledge which none of us is privy to, and not based on Kodak's personal attack on the tin hatted few.

Few? I bet you majority of people think Kodak are price gouging still shooters. Let’s poll…

 

[Sirius Glass]

Few? I bet you majority of people think Kodak are price gouging still shooters. Let’s poll…

No, we do not. We understand that business is not as simple as some are assuming, but none of us take it personally.

 

[Brad Deputy]

That may well be so, but the manufacturing companies are not plotting to upset the special few who are the same special few who complain about the manufacturers gouging them.

My point is that we can't wholly blame manufacturing. The vendors see an opportunity to keep prices high, since it's scarce and folks are willing to pay it. They're certainly not paying anywhere near that much money to obtain it from Kodak / Fuji.

 

[Brad Deputy]

One example is E100 @ 400 foot. Anybody can call Kodak direct and order some up, have it shipped to you. Or, pay B&H, and have $100+ added to the price. Free shipping doesn't save that much.

 

[MattKing]

They're certainly not paying anywhere near that much money to obtain it from Kodak / Fuji.

That isn't clear at all - depending on what you mean by "anywhere near that much money".
When I was in retail, we generally had to have a significantly large percentage of our inventory priced at least twice what our wholesale cost was in order to make any money.

 

[MattKing]

One example is E100 @ 400 foot. Anybody can call Kodak direct and order some up, have it shipped to you. Or, pay B&H, and have $100+ added to the price. Free shipping doesn't save that much.

And if you paid them to add frame numbers and split it into individual rolls, their increased costs would greatly increase your price. The cost of the "bulk" film is a significant portion of the final cost of rolls, but just a part.

 

[Don_ih]

Ethics or moral philosophy is a branch of philosophy

Wow, really? I had no idea.

Now, you said you "Never called anyone immoral" but then said you "simply said that reselling films at 20x the initial cost is not ethical." Is someone who engages in "not-ethical" behaviour not, at that time, behaving in an immoral way?

Oh, wait. I forgot - I don't care.

 

[Radost]

No, we do not. We understand that business is not as simple as some are assuming, but none of us take it personally.

Let’s start a poll. I am curious to see the results.

 

[Radost]

One example is E100 @ 400 foot. Anybody can call Kodak direct and order some up, have it shipped to you. Or, pay B&H, and have $100+ added to the price. Free shipping doesn't save that much.

How much is kodak’s price? Are you talking about the cinema packaging? Or do they sale bulk for still.

 

[Brad Deputy]

And if you paid them to add frame numbers and split it into individual rolls, their increased costs would greatly increase your price. The cost of the "bulk" film is a significant portion of the final cost of rolls, but just a part.

True, but in my example, it's the exact same product. 400 foot roll intended for cinema.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

How much is kodak’s price? Are you talking about the cinema packaging?

https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Kodak-Motion-Picture-Products-Price-Catalog-US.pdf

520$ for 400ft of film, equals 72 36 exp rolls, which means 7,22$ for a 36 exp roll of Ektachrome E100, versus 25$ of factory loaded same film. Big difference.

Another example?
Kodak Double-x 400ft roll lists for 316.56 ---> 72 36exp rolls ----> 4,39$ per 36exp rolls.
How much does it cost a roll of Double-x from common vendors?
14,9€ https://www.ars-imago.com/shop/kdx211p-1-double-x-200-bw-135-36-5946#attr=6783,6784,6785,6786,6787
43,95$ for a 5 pack https://www.ultrafineonline.com/ko52doxblwhf2.html that is 8,79$ for a single roll
12.59$ https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1720898-REG/flic_film_ff38059f_kodak_double_x_cine_film.html
Now let's aks: how much does it cost the spooling onto single cassettes?

 

[Radost]

Why do you guys think Kodak stopped making bulk portra but still sale TMAX and TRIX?

 

[Brad Deputy]

Well I take that back -- it appears B&H is selling the film at the EXACT same price as Kodak direct-
Even their Vision3 lines. 400 foot, $520 for E100, $316 for Vision3 500T. SO much for my case of price-gouging...this wasn't true earlier this year...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Koraks - both color neg film and color neg papers print optically better than ever, even if commercial workflow has gone mostly (not entirely at all) to so-called digital exposure. You can argue all you want about "digital optimized" this or that. Doesn't matter. The overall improvements in CN film itself as well as the necessary paper still puts we color darkroom printers well ahead of where we were 20 years ago. And there you go again, claiming no more paper optimized for dual usage still exists. But their very highest quality print medium still is - Fujiflex; and their most popular humble minilab product still is - Supreme.

And the fact of the matter is, most of the drum and Creo scanners themselves involved have long-term maintenance issues often relying on cannibalizing parts from other scanners of the same model, and reliant on old software. The bulk of photographers aren't shooting color film and having it scanned at all, but are now directly outputting digital shots onto inkjet, or having it done for them, if they're interested in prints at all.

Black and white film workflow, however, is much more reliant on loyal darkroom users, especially once it comes to the ongoing mfg of sheet film. Subtract these people from the equation, and Ilford would be dead in a heartbeat.

Don't say "Fujifilm" doesn't relate to camera film. It's been their official legacy corporate identity ever since their camera film lineup was in its heyday. Once a brand name and logo catches on, it's really stupid to change it, even if the product selection is a lot wider than any one specific category of the past. Nikon still uses their longstanding recognizable name and logo on all kinds of things outside the mentality of small camera photography - all sorts of medical equipment, some of it very expensive, machine vision optics, advanced microscopes, surveying instruments, etc. But it's still wisely the same corporate identity name and logo people readily identify with. Corporations work very hard and spend tons of money to establish those recognizable identities to begin with.
Kodak and Ford have been around as long as each other, yet they're still called Kodak and Ford, despite all the intervening innovations and changes in corporate hierarchy.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Why do you guys think Kodak stopped making bulk portra but still sale TMAX and TRIX?

Wanna know how much does a 100ft Tri-x rolls sells for in EU?

KODAK TRI-X 400 30,5m Bulk Film - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

Light Sensitivity: ISO 400/27°. Kodak Tri-X: The classic for art and journalistic photography. Highly sensitive panchromatic B/W film with classic crystal and grain ...

www.fotoimpex.com

175€
versus
100ft Ilford Hp5+ bulk roll 124€

Why 50€ of difference?

 

[Radost]

Well I take that back -- it appears B&H is selling the film at the EXACT same price as Kodak direct-
Even their Vision3 lines. 400 foot, $520 for E100, $316 for Vision3 500T. SO much for my case of price-gouging...this wasn't true earlier this year...

BH is selling 250d for a lot more than kodak

 

[DREW WILEY]

Since when does Kodak or any other major manufacturer sell mere individuals anything direct unless it's no longer fresh? First of all you, need to establish some serious purchasing clout yourself. Most camera stores now require a middleman distributor themselves. The pandemic wiped out the momentum of many of them to do otherwise. Net pricing is often based upon the size of the buy. I don't have access to the cost structure of any of these film manufacturers, but know darn well from my own career as a corporate good buyer how the game is played. Some minor brands do allow direct personal orders, but at full list price - they're not going to undercut their own distributors and middlemen if they've got any brains at all. And most simply can't waste their time on"tire kickers".

 

[Radost]

How dangerous is to have bulk roll shipped from Kodak in NY to the west coast? Would it pass some scanners?

 

[MCB18]

Since when does Kodak or any other major manufacturer sell mere individuals anything direct unless it's no longer fresh? First of all you, need to establish some serious purchasing clout yourself. Most camera stores now require a middleman distributor themselves. The pandemic wiped out the momentum of many of them to do otherwise. Net pricing is often based upon the size of the buy. I don't have access to the cost structure of any of these film manufacturers, but know darn well from my own career as a corporate good buyer how the game is played. Some minor brands do allow direct personal orders, but at full list price - they're not going to undercut their own distributors and middlemen if they've got any brains at all. And most simply can't waste their time on"tire kickers".

Uhhhhhh no. You can absolutely call up Kodak, as an individual, and order anything they list for sale to the public. This includes Vision3 stock and Aerocolor. Hell, I bet if you asked, and paid, they would sell you an entire master roll. I’m pretty sure that’s how they do the custom sheet orders from Kodak.

And, if you don’t believe me, I’m happy to dig out the receipt for 1 400’ roll of E100D that I got for $566 last April.