Shocked at how much bulk TMY-2 costs

[koraks]

Given his apparent lack of interest in their annual reports, I figure not

 

[MattKing]

For those who aren't aware - and many here are - although I've never worked for or invested in Kodak, my Dad worked for Kodak Canada for over a third of a century, I still have contacts/friendships with Kodak (and former Kodak) employees and many Kodak retirees, I've used Kodak products for more than half a century, in previous years I sold Kodak products (at retail) and I am happy to acknowledge my loyalty and what is probably bias.
I'm also happy to criticize Kodak.

 

[DREW WILEY]

In fairness, I think one has to place some distance between all the horrible stock market shenanigans of the Kodak of the past, and what the remains of Kodak is trying to achieve and maintain today. I've personally dealt with quite a few classic old manufacturing companies which were ruined by greedy incompetent people at the very top. That was the corporate Bubonic Plague of the 90's especially.

 

[Duceman]

Digging up some old receipts, I see that when I first started buying Kodak b/w film in 1996, I was paying $4.95 per roll from a local photo shop. Using this inflation calculator, that $4.95 in 1996 would be $9.59 in 2023 U.S. dollars.

 

[Radost]

Still waiting for somebody to explain why still color film is 3 times more expansive than vision3 color film.
Are the technologies and materials 3 times cheaper? Is the manufacturing process 3 times cheaper?
Or is it purely Kodak exploring the wave/momentum and charging the youth crazy prices?

 

[Radost]

Or even better:
Why Is Ektacrome in a vision container half the price of ektachrome in a cassette? Is putting it in a cassette double the price? Or is it a price set buy the willingness of the consumer to pay it?

 

[Craig]

In fairness, I think one has to place some distance between all the horrible stock market shenanigans of the Kodak of the past, and what the remains of Kodak is trying to achieve and maintain today. I've personally dealt with quite a few classic old manufacturing companies which were ruined by greedy incompetent people at the very top. That was the corporate Bubonic Plague of the 90's especially.

I don't think that has gone away. The American stock market driven economy is incredibly short sighted, it's only looking at the results for next quarter, not next year or 10 years away. If a company announced a plan that would see them lose money for the next 3 years but that would result in much greater than otherwise returns for years 4, 5 and beyond they would be hammred on their share price.

Capital markets don't reward long term thinking and neither does the way top management operates. How may times have we seen a CEO do something for the short term and the expense of the long term health of the company, collect their big bonus and go to another company and repeat every few years. It's everywhere in Corporate America. Nobody has a 10 year plan and the discipline to stick with it.

 

[Don_ih]

Is putting it in a cassette double the price?

Yes. Why not? Do you expect to pay the per barrel price for milk when you buy a pint of it?

Should the cassette and little plastic can and little cardboard box all be free?

 

[Radost]

Roll of 36 exposures EKTAKROME in a vision container $9
Roll or 35 exposures EKTAKROME for still cameras $22

It seams the math does not work.

 

[koraks]

Is putting it in a cassette double the price?

The cost of confectioning is pretty darn high.

As to the Vision3 vs C41 products:
* Different technologies and chemistry
* Differences in confectioning and packaging
* Differences in volumes
* I suspect differences in quality control and acceptable defect rate
* Different organizations of the distribution and retail channels (retailers get paid too - one of the horrors of the market economy)
* And yes, different markets
Which factor accounts for what part of the difference, you and I can only guess. I'll bet you a pro-pack of portra that there's nobody at Kodak who could give an exact number, either.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Have you watched any of those posted videos showing what actually goes on in that Kodak plant? That might give you a little perspective. And what makes you think you're talking about the same kind of film? Film for cine purposes is much different than for still transparencies. And who knows how old the repacked stock was, or exactly where it came from.

 

[Radost]

Yes. Why not? Do you expect to pay the per barrel price for milk when you buy a pint of it?

Should the cassette and little plastic can and little cardboard box all be free?

Not free but differently not twice the cost.
And your theory is wrong because Kodak still Bulk 100’ is almost the same cost as the same but in cassettes.

 

[koraks]

And your theory is wrong because Kodak still Bulk 100’ is almost the same cost as the same but in cassettes.

We should sticky that one as it is being brought up just about every week. If you search a little you'll find the explanation. Long story short: Kodak's 100ft still film confectioning line is phenomenally inefficient, financially speaking. They're apparently not in a position to improve this, which makes sense given the financials we've just explored together. Fixing this is apparently not really a priority for them. Makes good sense, too.

 

[Don_ih]

And your theory is wrong because Kodak still Bulk 100’ is almost the same cost as the same but in cassettes.

Oh, it was my theory that the bulk film should be cheaper per foot but it's been established Kodak needs to charge more for film packaged that way. Maybe if it was in 400 foot rolls, it could be cheaper.

Ah, but wait. It is cheaper per foot to buy film on 100' rolls than in the cassettes - at b&h, about 20% cheaper.

 

[Craig]

Or even better:
Why Is Ektacrome in a vision container half the price of ektachrome in a cassette? Is putting it in a cassette double the price? Or is it a price set buy the willingness of the consumer to pay it?

If I go to the dealer I can buy an oxygen sensor for my car, but the price is 10X the price of going to an aftermarket supplier to get exactly the same part. It's distribution chains and what various sellers decide to price their goods at, and far from unique to Kodak.

 

[Radost]

We should sticky that one as it is being brought up just about every week. If you search a little you'll find the explanation. Long story short: Kodak's 100ft still film confectioning line is phenomenally inefficient, financially speaking. They're apparently not in a position to improve this, which makes sense given the financials we've just explored together. Fixing this is apparently not really a priority for them. Makes good sense, too.

And 400’ is not?

 

[Radost]

If I go to the dealer I can buy an oxygen sensor for my car, but the price is 10X the price of going to an aftermarket supplier to get exactly the same part. It's distribution chains and what various sellers decide to price their goods at, and far from unique to Kodak.

You lost me. We are talking about the same product comes from the same place and ends the end consumer in exactly the same way but one version is twice as expansive.

 

[Radost]

The cost of confectioning is pretty darn high.

As to the Vision3 vs C41 products:
* Different technologies and chemistry
* Differences in confectioning and packaging
* Differences in volumes
* I suspect differences in quality control and acceptable defect rate
* Different organizations of the distribution and retail channels (retailers get paid too - one of the horrors of the market economy)
* And yes, different markets
Which factor accounts for what part of the difference, you and I can only guess. I'll bet you a pro-pack of portra that there's nobody at Kodak who could give an exact number, either.

Is it 3 times more expansive different? Is the consumers setting the price they are willing to pay?

I suspect the vision3 quality control might be even more comprehensive. You would not like Mickie when he is angry.

And speaking of retailers: Retailers price gauge as well. Below is an example.
And no I don’t think Target purchased so much more that they got a different price.

 

[koraks]

And 400’ is not?

Apparently not, which is likely justified by the volume in cine film, which is all sold in 400ft and 1000ft cans. As I understand, the confectioning lines are highly integrated (video evidence is on YouTube for all to see) and as you probably know, sprocketing and edge printing are different for cine films. This means that there's no easy way to reconfigure the vine film confectioning lines to spit out 100ft still rolls with different sprocketing, different edge printing and different packaging and labeling.

I understand, it seems so simple if you look at it from a distance. A 400ft roll is just 4 100ft rolls end to end, right? But that's not the case. And these kinds of complexities are literally everywhere you look.

 

[Craig]

You lost me. We are talking about the same product comes from the same place and ends the end consumer in exactly the same way but one version is twice as expansive.

Or the example I gave of a car part, it was 10 times more expensive. The point was you can't expect to buy the same thing at the same price everywhere. Although in your case it wasn't the same thing - it was a bulk roll vs pre-packaged cassettes.

 

[Radost]

Apparently not, which is likely justified by the volume in cine film, which is all sold in 400ft and 1000ft cans. As I understand, the confectioning lines are highly integrated (video evidence is on YouTube for all to see) and as you probably know, sprocketing and edge printing are different for cine films. This means that there's no easy way to reconfigure the vine film confectioning lines to spit out 100ft still rolls with different sprocketing, different edge printing and different packaging and labeling.

I understand, it seems so simple if you look at it from a distance. A 400ft roll is just 4 100ft rolls end to end, right? But that's not the case. And these kinds of complexities are literally everywhere you look.

So when Kodak does 2 different runs for ektachrome cine and stil one is 120% more expansive then the other?
It seams like somebody has to loose their job if that is the case.
I think kodak should pay Fuji for their expertise. I am sure the Japanese are not that inefficient.

 

[koraks]

I suspect the vision3 quality control might be even more comprehensive.

On Kodak C41 I've never seen a single defect. On Vision3 I sure have. Coincidence? I don't know. I do know that an amateur photographer is going to whine and complain about his precious photo of the piony in the backyard being ruined by an emulsion defect, while the odds that it even ends up in the final cut of a studio production are next to zero - and they digitally restore it anyway if it ends up there.

And speaking of retailers: Retailers price gauge as well

I think you're using the term "price gouging" quite liberally and with little regard for what it means. B&H isn't in a position to gouge anyone in this particular market.

It seams like somebody has to loose their job if that is the case.

Perhaps they could hire you. Seems like you've got all the answers.

 

[Radost]

Or the example I gave of a car part, it was 10 times more expensive. The point was you can't expect to buy the same thing at the same price everywhere. Although in your case it wasn't the same thing - it was a bulk roll vs pre-packaged cassettes.

Yes “bulk roll vs pre-packaged cassettes”.
One is $9 and the other $22. The same product.
There is absolutely no other product that has such a huge difference in the price just because the packaging is different.

 

[Radost]

On Kodak C41 I've never seen a single defect. On Vision3 I sure have. Coincidence? I don't know. I do know that an amateur photographer is going to whine and complain about his precious photo of the piony in the backyard being ruined by an emulsion defect, while the odds that it even ends up in the final cut of a studio production are next to zero - and they digitally restore it anyway if it ends up there.



I think you're using the term "price gouging" quite liberally and with little regard for what it means. B&H isn't in a position to gouge anyone in this particular market.




Perhaps they could hire you. Seems like you've got all the answers.

Is not crazy to assume that everybody is exploiting the “maybe real” c41 shortage and raising prices because the consumer “scared of the future” is willing to pay more.


I only have questions and suspicions.
You seam to have the answers.
People are so touchy when somebody criticizes Kodak. Its not a religion.
I don’t personally attack anybody.

 

[Radost]

Another example:
BHPhoto knows the Williamsburg cool people are willing to pay a lot more.