Sheets/HC-110 users: different dilutions for sun and overcast?

[Juan Valdenebro]

I just got a bottle of HC-110 (the real old syrup made by Kodak before recent years' problems) and I've never tried this developer before.
I'll start my testing with sunny scenes only, and as I want to mix the same way for 35mm and medium format, I'll make dilution F my standard for direct sunlight scenes: 1:79, 7.5:600 no matter the type of roll.
I think for mild uprating of ISO400 (640-800-1000) a stronger dilution would be a better idea...
What HC-110 dilution would you use for uprating a bit HP5+, Tri-X and TMY?

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Which are common uses for dilution A?
I have never heard or read someone talking about dilution A...

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Matt King, 2021:
"Dilution A was used most frequently for higher contrast materials like large sheet film used in graphic arts/printing shops.
Dilution B (1 + 31) is probably the "sweet" spot for the balance of grain and utility, although 1 + 49 (nearly dilution E) is really nice to use - here is a resource on that: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/hc110-made-simple.220/"

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Peter Gomena, 2012:
"Way back when, the newspaper darkroom person where I worked used the A dilution in tanks for developing 35mm. She would put the film in the tanks, give them a little agitation, then let them sit for the 3.5 minutes or whatever the (short) time was. So, yes, the "thicker" dilutions have or had their uses, especially where time mattered."

 

[MattKing]

Somehow Juan, I think you would be traumatized if you saw what newspaper photographers would do to their films .
When I worked for a major Canadian daily newspaper as a darkroom technician (great summer job for a University student) some of the older photographers were still unhappy about not being allowed to smoke any more in the darkrooms.
We won't talk about the drinking!

 

[Lachlan Young]

common uses for dilution A

The sort of things you would use stock DK-60a for.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Although it doesn't specifically address your question, this has always been a good resource for this developer: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

I've often used it at 1+31 for pushing HP5+, and agree with Covington that it's an area where HC-110 really shines. Would also work great in the same context with Tri-X.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Somehow Juan, I think you would be traumatized if you saw what newspaper photographers would do to their films .

I guess I would be!

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I've often used it at 1+31 for pushing HP5+, and agree with Covington that it's an area where HC-110 really shines. Would also work great in the same context with Tri-X.

That's great news to me!
Thank you, Alex!

 

[Bazza D]

I use mainly Dilution B. I have a bad back and try to minimize my time spent developing. I will use Dilution A occasionally with a several stop push to keep the time down. If you like the results with Dilution F; I would still use it for a push, if the extended times are fine for you. I would only change if I didn't like the results. If you were going to use a more concentrated dilution from Dilution F maybe try Dilution E (1:47) or H (1:69) which would be between Dilution B (1:31) and F (1:79). I use HC-110 (actually L110 knockoff) for its economy and short developing times. The only other dilution I use is Dilution E with Orwo UN54. It gives a 5:30-6 min developing time.

 

[faberryman]

So 3 different films at 3 different ISOs per film developed at 8 different dilutions per film per ISO for let's say 3 different times per film per ISO per dilution, so we are talking a couple of hundred rolls plus a couple of containers of developer. I hope when it is all said and done you will share the results. It will be interesting to see what you conclude. Will you be using a densitometer and plotting characteristic curves for each combination or are you just going to eyeball it?

The only information I have to share is that 30-40 years ago I shot Tri-X developed in HC110 at dilution B. I have forgotten how long I developed it. I didn't have a densitometer so I sent my negatives up to Fred Picker and he told me that measuring the film base plus fog density my personal EI was 320. I sort of wonder if he actually measured them because EI 320 is pretty much what everyone gets. Anyway, I thought my negatives looked pretty good.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I'm tempted, without knowing HC-110, to use 7.5ml for 600ml total, a s I said, for direct sunlight control.
And I'm thinking of 15ml (twice the volume of developer) as my usual soft light amount of syrup, again for 600ml total.
Would someone say the same sunny 7.5ml would do a perfect job for soft light, just by extending development time more than if I used 15ml?
Opinions are divided: some people say 15ml per roll is wasting a lot of developer...

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

So 3 different films at 3 different ISOs per film developed at 8 different dilutions per film per ISO for let's say 3 different times per film per ISO per dilution, so we are talking a couple of hundred rolls plus a couple of containers of developer. I hope when it is all said and done you will share the results. It will be interesting to see what you conclude. Will you be using a densitometer and plotting characteristic curves for each combination or are you just going to eyeball it?

I don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I'll use only two types of exposure/development:
One for direct sunlight, and a different one for soft light.
EI200 for sun, EI640 for overcast.
And there's one question only:
As I magine two different dilutions would be the best way to do it, I asked if there are people who found using the same dilution, no matter the scene contrast, is a better way to do it.

 

[faberryman]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

I thought you were interested in determining what dilution of HC110 would be best for developing HP5+, Tri-X, and TMY at ISO 640, ISO 800, and ISO 1000 for direct sunlight scenes.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I thought you were interested in determining what dilution of HC110 would be best for developing HP5+, Tri-X, and TMY at ISO 640, ISO 800, and ISO 1000 for direct sunlight scenes.

Not possible... Only EI200 or very close to it is fine for sunny scenes.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Possible good answers:
1. I know HC-110: you should use higher dilutions for sun only.
2. I know HC-110: you can get the best results using the same dilution for both types of scene contrast.
3. I know HC-110: you don't need to use as much as 7.5ml and 15ml for a total of 600ml: use 4ml and 8ml and you'll get exactly the same results with a bit more time.
4. I don't really know HC-110.

 

[faberryman]

Not possible... Only EI200 or very close to it is fine for sunny scenes.

Why not possible? How did you determine EI200 for sunny scenes if you have never used the developer? Is that for HP5, TMY, and Tri-X? How did you select what dilution would be best? Why do you think different EIs would be best for sunny scenes and soft light scenes? Why do you think different dilutions would be best for sunny scenes and soft light scenes?

 

[MattKing]

If you wish to use localized exhaustion to help reign in highlight densities, you can take the risk of using less syrup than is recommended. The risk being that localized exhaustion can have an effect on other parts of the image.
There probably isn't any benefit from using more than 6 ml of syrup per roll, unless you have high key images and are developing for much higher contrast - say for certain alternative printing processes.
The biggest reason to use the different dilutions is to vary the relative amount of sulfite. The dilutions were created in the first place to enable Kodak to sell HC-110 as a replacement for a number of different developers used in commercial labs. It was a great selling point - one bottle could be used by a lab in several different lines, for several different applications. They dilution control also permitted matching developer to an already existing development time - handy for some old dip and dunk machines.
A lot of commercial labs used HC-110 replenished - still in the different dilutions.

 

[Vaughn]

My requirements are for negatives of relatively high contrast, and within a small range of contrast for specific alternative processes (using sheet film). My use of HC-110 included changing dilutions to reach my goals. One factor was length of development -- I wanted to keep the development times reasonable to save time and to prevent any build-up of base fog. I went from there to using Ilford PQ Universal Developer, going from paper strength (1:9) to film strength (1:19) as needed. Instead of dividing exposure into clear/overcast, I used the scenes' brightness range to determine development. Again, I am going for high contrast range negatives which made the stronger developer dilutions advanteous.

But the proof will be in the printing. There has been a recent discussion about using a divided pyro developer to moderate contrast that was very interesting...paticularially for those rolls that would have both cloudy and sunlit scenes on the same roll.

 

[faberryman]

The biggest reason to use the different dilutions is to vary the relative amount of sulfite.

That may be the case, but the practical reasons are that you don't want your developing time to be too short, and you want to make sure you have at least 6ml of developer per roll in the tank.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Thank you, Matt.
AA used for sun close to 7ml at 1:119. (Of couse materials have changed).
I`ve seen good sunny scenes without such weakness: 8ml at 1:63 for 500ml.
That's why I thought of dilution F for sun (1:79), weak enough, and 7.5ml: more than enough developer.
Maybe I shouldn't go up to15ml for soft light... If J.Brunner did serious testing on this and picked 1:49 for all types of light, I guess 12ml or perhaps even 10ml should work for overcast...

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

My requirements are for negatives of relatively high contrast, and within a small range of contrast for specific alternative processes (using sheet film). My use of HC-110 included changing dilutions to reach my goals. One factor was length of development -- I wanted to keep the development times reasonable to save time and to prevent any build-up of base fog. I went from there to using Ilford PQ Universal Developer, going from paper strength (1:9) to film strength (1:19) as needed. Instead of dividing exposure into clear/overcast, I used the scenes' brightness range to determine development. Again, I am going for high contrast range negatives which made the stronger developer dilutions advanteous.

But the proof will be in the printing. There has been a recent discussion about using a divided pyro developer to moderate contrast that was very interesting...paticularially for those rolls that would have both cloudy and sunlit scenes on the same roll.

Thank you, Vaughn, I'll check it.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Why impossible? How did you determine EI200 for sunny scenes if you have never used the developer? Is that for HP5, TMY, and Tri-X? How did you select what dilution would be best? Why do you think different EIs would be best for sunny scenes and soft light scenes? Why do you think different dilutions would be best for sunny scenes and soft light scenes?

Six questions and you can't answer... You're out of place.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Doremus Scudder (2017 largeformatphotography):
"Increasing dilution (provided that you have enough stock for the amount of film you are developing) just increases the developing time. I have made negatives that are identical for all intents and purposes with HC-110 1+31 and 1+63, just developed at different times. I liked the higher dilution due to the longer times for N- developments, which with dil. B could often be less than four minutes.

Interestingly, I found I got better N+ negs with higher dilutions of HC-110; less overall fog and more snap in the highlights. I don't really understand why though."