Sharing a bottle - fixer

randyB · Dec 6, 2009

As you can see from the replies you've received lots of good advice, all of it is very usable depending on your working habits and the importance of your film. My SOP is to use separate mixes for film and paper and never exceeding the capacity of each. If I have "important" film to process I will make a new mix if my current batch is past 50% capacity. Having said that, if I have a test roll to quickly process I sometimes use the paper fix, I just fix for a longer time as paper fix is at a weaker strenght than the film mix. I would not recommend using paper fix for film as a rule because of the grit, dust, junk that gets in the solution from being in an open tray. The two-bath fix is the ultimate way to go for paper and I use it (always freah mix) when I make "salon" quality prints. RB

dancqu · Dec 6, 2009

Ilford's recommendation; 0.5 grams per liter

snallan said:
Indeed for archival processing of paper, it is recommended
that the level of dissolved silver does not exceed 0.5 g/l for
a single bath fixing regime.

Grant Haist's 'archival' dissolved silver limit is 0.2 grams per
liter. Ilford's stated capacity for their rapid fixers is based
upon 2 grams per liter dissolved silver. Those limits
apply to FB papers.

Take note, the above are VOLUMETRIC limits. The limits
mentioned do not come even close to the chemistry's
capacity for silver. Ilford's recommended film limit
is 8 grams per liter.

Dilution: at the low volumetric limits the 1:9 paper
strength dilution will fix twice as many square
feet of paper than the 1:4 film strength
dilution. Dan

RalphLambrecht · Dec 7, 2009

dancqu said:
Grant Haist's 'archival' dissolved silver limit is 0.2 grams per
liter...

I don't have his book (yet), but could it be that he was taling about single-bath fixing?

Andrew Moxom · Dec 7, 2009

For film developing, I keep 2.5 liters of 1:4 Hypam mixed up all the time. Before I use it, I dump 500ml, and then add in 100ml of hypam, and 400 ml of water EACH time. Replenishing the fixer seems to prolong the useful life of it and it's more economical that way.

For printing, I use a 2 bath fix like Ilford suggests. I mix it 1:7 and use the 1st bath for about 12 8x10 prints maximum in 1l of solution. Similarly for the 2nd bath. I fix for 1 minute in each bath. After I am done printing, I pour the 2nd bath into a container and it becomes the first fixer for the next session.... Again, it prolongs the useful life, and is very economical.

BetterSense · Dec 7, 2009

I keep 2.5 liters of 1:4 Hypam mixed up all the time. Before I use it, I dump 500ml, and then add in 100ml of hypam, and 400 ml of water EACH time. Replenishing the fixer seems to prolong the useful life of it and it's more economical that way.

Maybe my math is bad, but if you are doing small roll processing, it sounds like you could use it one-shot, have exactly the same expense, and always have fresh fixer. What am I missing? Do you use large tanks of the stuff?

Kirk Keyes · Dec 7, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
Not at all. The film may be clear, but fixing byproducts may still be in the emulsion. The two-bath fixing method works great to solve this issue.

I use two bath fisxing as well for both film and paper. I started with paper as it was highly recommended, and I fugured, why not with film too?!

Denis R · Dec 7, 2009

turning silver into gold

is there a way to recover the silver and keep using the fixer??

dancqu · Dec 11, 2009

Even Less; 0.05 grams?

RalphLambrecht said:
I don't have his book (yet), but could it be that
he was taling about single-bath fixing?

At rec.photo.darkroom search for, - copyright two
bath -. I may have had film in mind when mentioning
0.2 grams per liter. The final fix, one or two bath, is
quoted as being 0.05 grams per liter; 5 8x10s per
gallon. An error in transcription? That is 1/10th
of Ilford's 0.5 gram 'archival' maximum.

The post at that site is from Dr. Gudzinowicz; very
lengthy but not too technical. Fixers and fixing in
depth. Must reading.

BTW, Vol 1, Wiley 1979; the above info. Thirty
years ago. Has anything changed? Dan

hughennis · Dec 11, 2009

Here in Ireland a 5 Litre of Kodak Fixer cost about 15 euro . Thats 15 euro to fix 100 rols of 120 film - 15 cent a roll! or 166 rols of 35mm - thats 9 cent a roll .
I just cant understand why any one would go to the bother and hassle of bottling it let alone taking the risk of ruining a roll .
A 1 Litre bottle of HC110 costs around the same - and will develop more than 100 rolls of 35mm - again why reuse??? its crazy .

RalphLambrecht · Dec 11, 2009

dancqu said:
At rec.photo.darkroom search for, - copyright two
bath -. I may have had film in mind when mentioning
0.2 grams per liter. The final fix, one or two bath, is
quoted as being 0.05 grams per liter; 5 8x10s per
gallon. An error in transcription? That is 1/10th
of Ilford's 0.5 gram 'archival' maximum.

The post at that site is from Dr. Gudzinowicz; very
lengthy but not too technical. Fixers and fixing in
depth. Must reading.

BTW, Vol 1, Wiley 1979; the above info. Thirty
years ago. Has anything changed? Dan

I don't believe that's a typo. It sounds right for the 2nd fix. It is the same number that is quoted for the 2nd paper fix when the 1st fix has reached a silver thiosulfate content of 0.5-1.0 g/l. The idea is to promote an almost fresh 2nd fix to be the 1st fixer.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 11, 2009

Denis R said:
is there a way to recover the silver and keep using the fixer??

recover the silver: yes
reuse the fixer: no

2F/2F · Dec 11, 2009

Even at its stated capacity or 24 rolls per liter, my Ilford Rapid Fixer clears leaders in just under twice the original clearing time (which is usually 40 seconds when just mixed).

I want to switch to a two bath method. That makes sense to me...but I cannot see chucking a liter of fixer after only putting four rolls through it. It is incredibly wasteful at over $2 per liter, and will add a lot more volume to my "hazardous waste" collection (which I take in to be properly disposed of about twice a year).

So, I figure for the first bath, I will only do half the time, followed by a rinse and a second bath, but I will continue using the first bath up to the stated capacity, or two times the original clearing time with a leader test.

The problem is, how do I judge when to chuck the second fixer bath once I have moved it into the position of the first? With the first liter of first-bath fixer that I mix, I can simply count rolls. The following batches, however, will have a little bit of silver in them to start, because they were formerly the second-bath fixer. If I make the cutoff at 20 rolls instead of 24, do you think I will be safe?

Also, why does Ilford state a 7-day shelf life for working solution fixer? What determines the life of the fixer aside from silver capacity?

RalphLambrecht · Dec 11, 2009

2F/2F said:
...The problem is, how do I judge when to chuck the second fixer bath once I have moved it into the position of the first? With the first liter of first-bath fixer that I mix, I can simply count rolls. The following batches, however, will have a little bit of silver in them to start, because they were formerly the second-bath fixer...

See post #35. The thiosulfate level in the 2nd bath is minute with regular two-bath fixing.

2F/2F said:
...Also, why does Ilford state a 7-day shelf life for working solution fixer? What determines the life of the fixer aside from silver capacity?

Oxidation and thiosulfate turning into sulfur.

What films are you using? TMax?

2F/2F · Dec 11, 2009

Thank you.

I mostly use HP5, Arista Premium 400, and Delta 3200 for 35mm roll film, and sometimes T-Max 400. For medium format, I use the same, plus I sometimes use Pan F, FP4, and the occasional "odd" film like Efke IR 820 or Rollei Pan 25. In large format, I usually use FP4, HP5, Efke 25 and 100, T-Max 100, and sometimes Neopan 100. Basically, a little of everything, but not much T-Max in teh grand scheme of things. HP5 and Delta 3200 are definitely my most-used films.

Another interesting thing is that Kodak films definitely make the fixer smell badly (like sulfer), and more pink. I never get that smell or color with Ilford films.

I wonder how bad it is to use the fixer past the 7-day shelf life. I think the last batch I finally dumped recently after running the stated capacity through it was mixed about 8 months prior. I had done a tone of shooting and not much processing in that period. It cleared leaders fine, and didn't stink, so I used it. Seemed to work just fine.

Anon Ymous · Dec 11, 2009

2F/2F said:
...Also, why does Ilford state a 7-day shelf life for working solution fixer? What determines the life of the fixer aside from silver capacity?

Quoted from Ilford Rapid Fixer's datasheet:

Unreplenished ILFORD RAPID FIXER working strength solutions should last for up to:
6 months in full tightly capped bottles
2 months in a tank or dish/tray with a floating lid
1 month in a half full tightly capped bottle.
7 days in an open dish/tray.

If you bottle it, it will have (at least) a 6 month life. Yesterday I processed a roll Tri-X. Leader cleared in 40'', I fixed for 5' (my minimum) in 5 months old solution, got magenta negatives. Checked for proper fixation and everything was ok.

BetterSense · Dec 11, 2009

I typically use my fixer until I take the lid off at 3 min and see that the roll is obviously unfixed. Then i mix a new batch. I do this because I want to get the maximum mileage out of my fixer. I don't like wasting it. This thread has made me realize that using my fixer to failure might be leaving too much silver in my negatives. I could use 2-bath fixing, still use my fixer to absolute exhaustion, yet always finish fixing with very low-silver-content "bath2" fixer. There would be no downside other than the requirement to keep two fixer containers. I might start doing that simply for simultaneous economy and peace of mind.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 11, 2009

BetterSense said:
I typically use my fixer until I take the lid off at 3 min and see that the roll is obviously unfixed. Then i mix a new batch. I do this because I want to get the maximum mileage out of my fixer. I don't like wasting it. This thread has made me realize that using my fixer to failure might be leaving too much silver in my negatives. I could use 2-bath fixing, still use my fixer to absolute exhaustion, yet always finish fixing with very low-silver-content "bath2" fixer. There would be no downside other than the requirement to keep two fixer containers. I might start doing that simply for simultaneous economy and peace of mind.

Good idea. Also, I second the article mentioned in post #33. Very good information on archival fixing.

dancqu · Dec 12, 2009

No Testing or Counting Needed

2F/2F said:
The problem is, how do I judge when to chuck the
second fixer bath once I have moved it into the position
of the first? With the first liter of first-bath fixer that I mix,
I can simply count rolls.

Counting rolls or adding up square footage is not a very
sure way of evaluating a fixers remaining capacity.
Fixers die at varying rates, used or unused. The
only test to consider valid is the strip test;
a real world test of the fixer itself.

Another test, the FT-1, uses drops of potassium iodide.
Directions vary on it's usage, the test is not nearly as
quantitative as it should be, and an exactness of
interpretation of results is lacking.

When using rapid fix I found that 15ml of concentrate
in the needed solution volume would thoroughly fix one
120 roll. Fresh fix used one shot. Solution silver load
very low; likely within 'archival' levels with one fix.
No testing needed. Dan

Martin Aislabie · Dec 15, 2009

I use a Fixer Bath Test Strip (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=523) to give me the Silver content.

I use 2mg for Paper & 4mg for Film as the limit - but usually chuck it before then as I tend to do my work in batches and don't bother storing used Fix

I think the 3rd Ed of the Darkroom Cook Book suggests 2mg for the first Fixer Bath & 0.5mg for the Second - if you are using a 2 bath method for FB Paper

Martin

RalphLambrecht · Dec 15, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
I use a Fixer Bath Test Strip (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=523) to give me the Silver content.

I use 2mg for Paper & 4mg for Film as the limit - but usually chuck it before then as I tend to do my work in batches and don't bother storing used Fix

I think the 3rd Ed of the Darkroom Cook Book suggests 2mg for the first Fixer Bath & 0.5mg for the Second - if you are using a 2 bath method for FB Paper

Martin

I use the same test strips. They are good. I consider 2g/l the absolute maximum silver content for the 1st fix and would stay below 1g/l to be archival. There is little need to check the 2nd fix for silver. The test strip is not sensitive enough to detect any with a proper two-bath fixing regime.

DLawson · Dec 15, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
I use a Fixer Bath Test Strip (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=523) to give me the Silver content.

Does anyone know of a US source for those, or equivalent?
I'd like that sort of detail, rather than a simple pass/fail test.

dancqu · Dec 16, 2009

mg? Have You Got That Right?

Martin Aislabie said:
I use a Fixer Bath Test Strip
(http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=523)
to give me the Silver content.
I use 2mg for Paper & 4mg for Film as the limit ... Martin

I suppose that mg might be used but the dimensions
usually employed are grams and liters; eg, grams/
liter. See Ralph's following post.

I know those figures don't mean anything to me and
doubt they mean anything to Ralph. Dan

RalphLambrecht · Dec 16, 2009

dancqu said:
I suppose that mg might be used but the dimensions
usually employed are grams and liters; eg, grams/
liter. See Ralph's following post.

I know those figures don't mean anything to me and
doubt they mean anything to Ralph. Dan

Well, I stumbled over that one a bit too, but in the end, I decided to let it go. Any fixer contamination must be stated as mass per volume, grams/liter (g/l) works, so does milligrams/milliliter (mg/ml). So, using mg was not wrong per say, it was just missing the respective unit of volume. There are many ways to skin a cat:

Sharing a bottle - fixer

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