Shanghai GP3 220 film is possibly too long for my old Nebro (Not Paterson after all) tank/reel

Digital Wendy · Aug 9, 2022

So this was a surprise - and darkroom surprises are not my favourite kind.
Either the longer 200 film builds too much friction in my old Paterson reel - entirely possible as it is no longer very smooth - OR 220 film is too long for the reel . I ended up cutting off the first 6" . Sadly there may have been an image in that first frame but was not sure I could face unreeling it all to start again. Particularly because I was still uncertain about which side was emulsion and it is very curly, presumably because it is wrapped so tight to get it on the reel.
Next surprise - the film support on Shanghai GP3 stock is blue! I'm sure the non-emulsion side of film can be any number of colours and this one is blue. It feels a bit different too. Will be developed in Caffenol later this week so we'll see what comes out.
For now I'm relieved to have got most of it into the tank more-or-less safely; snakes in a darkroom!
Grateful to Nik and Trick and GP3 Offical Account for the chance to try this. If it works well I'm sure I'll get more practiced at handling it.

Cholentpot · Aug 9, 2022

I just let my too long film hang off the end. It works with 35mm I'd assume it works with 120 or 220.

Digital Wendy · Aug 9, 2022

Cholentpot said:
I just let my too long film hang off the end. It works with 35mm I'd assume it works with 120 or 220.

Yes, I sat there in the dark and thought about that . . .
Then decided that I would need to remember to turn the spinner the correct way for each agitation, or it would rub on the tank, or even unwind.
I'm truly hoping this won't happen again. If it does I shall remember - thank you.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2022

You will certainly want to use inversion agitation if the film is too long for the reel!
If you haven't cut your negatives yet into strips, try loading the developed film into the reel again to check the length. You can do it in the light!

Cholentpot · Aug 9, 2022

Digital Wendy said:
Yes, I sat there in the dark and thought about that . . .
Then decided that I would need to remember to turn the spinner the correct way for each agitation, or it would rub on the tank, or even unwind.
I'm truly hoping this won't happen again. If it does I shall remember - thank you.

I've twisted either way when hanging off the end and I've been lucky so far. With Shanghai I'd be worried about rubbing though, might not be the strongest film out there.

Maris · Aug 9, 2022

I've just developed and printed a roll of Shanghai GP-3 220 roll film and it does not look like the film the OP encountered.
My film went perfectly on a Paterson reel, not too short or long, and developed nicely in replenished Xtol. The film base was clear not blue.
The backing paper was black both sides with the leader reading "120 film start" and the tailer reading "120 film exposed". The little white gummed tape that held the roll closed read "GP3 100 220 film".
Curiously the film itself has no maker's name or frame numbers, just all blank.

Because it was my first Shanghai 220 film I did a series of bracketed exposure tests. With my Sekonic L-758D meter and my usual metering method to support Zone III shadow detail I had to set an E.I. = 25 without a filter and E.I. = 3 with a #25 red filter. The slower speed was a surprise but not a problem because I shoot everything off a tripod anyway.

There is surely more than one version of Shanghai 220 film out there. My film came in a white box with Shanghai Jian Cheng Technology Co., Ltd as the maker.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2022

I wrap the extra length around the reel as long as it does not come around and cover itself.

cmacd123 · Aug 9, 2022

the blue is proably the anti-halo dye which disolves or become colourless in the developer. this is why some times you get brightly coloured developer when you empty a tank

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2022

cmacd123 said:
the blue is proably the anti-halo dye which disolves or become colourless in the developer. this is why some times you get brightly coloured developer when you empty a tank

The anti halination dyes add color and excitement to home development. No harm, no foul.

nosmok · Aug 9, 2022

I started out on older Paterson tanks when I started developing-- the experience drove me to vintage Nikor metal tanks and reels. That twist agitation would always extrude film, I think because it was the same motion one loaded them with. And loading was kind of a crapshoot anyway-- after 8 years I do now own a couple metal reels that are as hard to load as the Patersons were, but it took that long. If you've gotten good results from Patersons before this 220 imbroglio, you're a better person than me!

Digital Wendy · Aug 10, 2022

MattKing said:
You will certainly want to use inversion agitation if the film is too long for the reel!
If you haven't cut your negatives yet into strips, try loading the developed film into the reel again to check the length. You can do it in the light!

Good idea, thank you. Not even developed yet! I'll report back . . .

Digital Wendy · Aug 10, 2022

nosmok said:
I started out on older Paterson tanks when I started developing-- the experience drove me to vintage Nikor metal tanks and reels. That twist agitation would always extrude film, I think because it was the same motion one loaded them with. And loading was kind of a crapshoot anyway-- after 8 years I do now own a couple metal reels that are as hard to load as the Patersons were, but it took that long. If you've gotten good results from Patersons before this 220 imbroglio, you're a better person than me!

I grew up with this Paterson tank (literally) and I'm used to it, but I more often use an even older, simpler, Nebro nowadays. I find the Nebro loads 120 easily, despite having no back-and-forth option. It's also smaller and so uses less chemicals.
Picked up the Paterson this time because I assumed the larger reel might be better for the longer film. Once this first 220 film is developed I shall measure it against both reels, including the few inches I cut off!
I've seen the vintage Nikor tanks for sale too and will now take a closer look, so thank you for the recommendation .

Digital Wendy · Aug 10, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
The anti halination dyes add color and excitement to home development. No harm, no foul.

Ahah! That's must be where the purple comes from when I develop my usual Ilford. I'll watch out for the blue - and maybe there are other variations I'm yet to discover.

Digital Wendy · Aug 10, 2022

Maris said:
I've just developed and printed a roll of Shanghai GP-3 220 roll film and it does not look like the film the OP encountered.
My film went perfectly on a Paterson reel, not too short or long, and developed nicely in replenished Xtol. The film base was clear not blue.
The backing paper was black both sides with the leader reading "120 film start" and the tailer reading "120 film exposed". The little white gummed tape that held the roll closed read "GP3 100 220 film".
Curiously the film itself has no maker's name or frame numbers, just all blank.

Because it was my first Shanghai 220 film I did a series of bracketed exposure tests. With my Sekonic L-758D meter and my usual metering method to support Zone III shadow detail I had to set an E.I. = 25 without a filter and E.I. = 3 with a #25 red filter. The slower speed was a surprise but not a problem because I shoot everything off a tripod anyway.

There is surely more than one version of Shanghai 220 film out there. My film came in a white box with Shanghai Jian Cheng Technology Co., Ltd as the maker.

Should have included the box in my picture. I'll hunt it out later. Thank you for sharing your exposure experiments. I always use a tripod too and I'm tending to longer exposures while I learn the ins-and-outs of my big reflex camera. More data always helps .

Nokton48 · Aug 10, 2022

I've been developing some 220 Shanghai in Paterson long tanks, and I've been able to fully load each roll onto the reels so far. But I can easily see how it can become very frustrating. I have found if I speed up and do not take my time, rolls can and do become physically damaged. Best to practice with a dummy or already developed roll. Yes it can be tricky and frustrating! Trimming the leading corners is always an option

Keep at it and practice loading.

Donald Qualls · Aug 10, 2022

Any modern Paterson reel should take 220, assuming it's not more than a few centimeters longer than twice a 120 roll. I routinely load two 120 rolls in mine (randomly choosing from seven reels), one after the other. If you don't process 220 much, there may be residue in the grooves; after you unload, pull the reel apart and go over the groove side of the plates with a toothbrush under warm running water, rinse fully, and air dry. Some folks then run a soft pencil along the grooves to add a little lubrication, but I've never done this.

Huss · Aug 10, 2022

Hmm, never had any issues with the length of Shanghai 220. Same length as my other 220 films from Kodak and Ilford.
I use the basic Arista reels and tanks from freestylephoto

Sirius Glass · Aug 10, 2022

Huss said:
Hmm, never had any issues with the length of Shanghai 220. Same length as my other 220 films from Kodak and Ilford.
I use the basic Arista reels and tanks from freestylephoto

You would know. You use more Shanghai 220 than all of Photrio combined.

Huss · Aug 10, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
You would know. You use more Shanghai 220 than all of Photrio combined. View attachment 312590

Perhaps. But that would be because they are the only source of new 220 film.

Digital Wendy · Aug 11, 2022

Maris said:
I've just developed and printed a roll of Shanghai GP-3 220 roll film and it does not look like the film the OP encountered.
My film went perfectly on a Paterson reel, not too short or long, and developed nicely in replenished Xtol. The film base was clear not blue.
The backing paper was black both sides with the leader reading "120 film start" and the tailer reading "120 film exposed". The little white gummed tape that held the roll closed read "GP3 100 220 film".
Curiously the film itself has no maker's name or frame numbers, just all blank.

Because it was my first Shanghai 220 film I did a series of bracketed exposure tests. With my Sekonic L-758D meter and my usual metering method to support Zone III shadow detail I had to set an E.I. = 25 without a filter and E.I. = 3 with a #25 red filter. The slower speed was a surprise but not a problem because I shoot everything off a tripod anyway.

There is surely more than one version of Shanghai 220 film out there. My film came in a white box with Shanghai Jian Cheng Technology Co., Ltd as the maker.

pentaxuser · Aug 11, 2022

Unless others can report that Shanghai 220 is considerably longer than other 220 film then doesn't there have to be another explanation why the OP has reported this problem?

I'd be amazed Paterson didn't or doesn't, assuming it still produces tanks and reels, make its equipment to accept 220 which was once a common size

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Aug 11, 2022

pentaxuser said:
I'd be amazed Paterson didn't or doesn't, assuming it still produces tanks and reels, make its equipment to accept 220

Paterson (and Paterson clones like those sold by Freestyle) are made to accept 135-36 and 220, as far as I know. The design of the reel plates hasn't changed since 220 was widely available. If a 220 roll hangs before it's all the way in, it's very likely a 135-36 will as well. My Paterson reels accept overlength bulk loaded 35 mm up to about 40 frames, anyway -- that'd be 144 cm plus any leader that gets left on.

If 220 won't go all the way in, it's probably due to residue built up in the grooves near the core.

Nokton48 · Aug 11, 2022

I no longer photo-flo on the loaded reels; I mix up a tray 5x7" distilled water and see-saw the 220 through it

It is difficult to get rid of residual photo-flo on reels

BTW the 70mm stock is -even more fun- to get to load. I talking about modified Paterson reels widened to fit 70mm stock

Estate purchase Paterson System 4 by Nokton48, on Flickr

My Stash of 220 Film by Nokton48, on Flickr

Donald Qualls · Aug 11, 2022

Nokton48 said:
BTW the 70mm stock is -even more fun- to get to load. I talking about modified Paterson reels widened to fit 70mm stock

Oh boy...

GregY · Aug 11, 2022

Nokton48 said:
I no longer photo-flo on the loaded reels; I mix up a tray 5x7" distilled water and see-saw the 220 through it

It is difficult to get rid of residual photo-flo on reels

BTW the 70mm stock is -even more fun- to get to load. I talking about modified Paterson reels widened to fit 70mm stock

Estate purchase Paterson System 4 by Nokton48, on Flickr

My Stash of 220 Film by Nokton48, on Flickr

I'm completely envious of your 220 stock!

Shanghai GP3 220 film is possibly too long for my old Nebro (Not Paterson after all) tank/reel

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