Shanghai GP3 100 in 220 now available...

GP3 Offical Account · Oct 11, 2021

flavio81 said:
So nice to see presence of another manufacturer in Photrio. Welcome to photrio!!

I see 220, 620 and 127 formats are there with factory boxes which is great news.

I love using 220 film and I am really excited by this announcement, even though the current price for GP3 220 doesn't make too much sense to me, to be honest. As for the backing paper problems, people should remember that 220 film doesn't have a backing paper for the actual film, only for the leader and for the end of the roll. So there should be less problems.

Again, the price leaves me scratching my head a little bit; i would be glad to buy a 10-pack or 20-pack of rolls if the price was at a nicer discount.

People are saying very bad things about GP3, perhaps due to quality issues in the past, but i've seen very beautiful results from GP3.

I can explain more regarding 220 craftsmanship, as you know 220 only have the leader and ending backing paper for the roll, which cause it cannot be automatic made by machine, only can do semi-automatic. This make the 220 film is more expensive than 2 rolls of 120. even the material is equal 2 rolls 120.
low demand plus high requirement for human packing( easy have scratching and mistake when this is a labor work)
Thats the reason why Ilford, Kodak, Fuji ect. they do not continue or even do not want bring 220 back.
What we do is just want to make those kinds of format back to fans.

GP3 Offical Account · Oct 11, 2021

Paul Howell said:
Foma is about half the price of Shanghai GP3, unless I was shooting a wedding in B&W I would rather carry a few additional 120 backs.

Foma price usually similar with GP3 as be honestly , we are the similar production in the marketing, they want to bring a cheaper and reasonable B&W film to marketing as well.
maybe you can try buy some from our offical store, price is reasonable.
ads post.lols

GP3 Offical Account · Oct 11, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I thought the factory was a government entity or something.

I suspect something else.

For the domestic Asian market the price was far lower, someone decided that it was worth pricing out the domestic market and worth just focusing on the western market. The cost of operation hasn't gone up, but the opportunities to make a buck may have been perceived to have gone up.

In other words, good old fashioned greed.

yes, price on China marketing is cheaper than any other country price, but that is due to we are Chinese brand. no import tax no shipping no extra cost add up. and Same reason Kodak is more expensive when we buy them in China. haha.
Hope that explain make sense to western consumer. we did want to open the marketing with bargain price to all.

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

GP3 Offical Account said:
I can explain more regarding 220 craftsmanship, as you know 220 only have the leader and ending backing paper for the roll, which cause it cannot be automatic made by machine, only can do semi-automatic. This make the 220 film is more expensive than 2 rolls of 120..

Sorry, I don't buy this explanation, for the following reasons:

1. 220 film exists since 1965, surely many automatic machines for it were designed and made, since it was produced in big scale by many manufacturers. Big manufacturers had automatic machines for every conceivable format: 126, 110, 127, 120, etc. Shanghai has been around since 1958, it's not a new company.

2. 220 is identical to 120 at the start of the roll, identically taped, with the difference that the backing paper doesn't need to go on. And then it is taped to the paper at the end of the emulsion roll. This is the only substantial difference to 120. It's not like it was an entirely different film.

3. Increased cost? On the good days of film, Fuji 220 film was only slightly more expensive than 120, not twice as expensive.

4. Increased cost? In sept 2020 Shanghai 400 in 220 was priced $8.82 usd per roll, not the big amount they want to charge now.

Thanks for making 220 film but at the current cost, which is more than the cost of 3 (three) rolls of fomapan 100, it doesn't seem a good buy.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2021

If you look back to the time when Ilford/Harman was forced to de-commission their 220 line, it was due in main to two factors:
1) their existing, custom made 220 assembly machine was worn out, and the cost of repair or replacement was so high (over 300,000 pound sterling) as to make repair or replacement uneconomical, based on projected sales volumes and their very real limitations on the availability of capital; and
2) they had used up the inventory on hand of leader and trailer paper, and the minimum order quantities of the remaining supplier for the leaders and trailers meant that they would have to buy (and pay for ahead of time) several years supply - an equally large burden on their available capital.
Around that time. as I understand it, Eastman Kodak's 220 assembly machine was also old and in need of expensive repair or replacement, and they too were close to using up their remaining inventory of leaders and trailers. They were only able to continue with 220 for a small number of years after Ilford Harman were forced to stop. They too have real capital constraints - those minimum order requirements for the leaders and trailers are brutal.
Fuji, being Fuji, doesn't share any information about 220.
The biggest factor though is the capital requirements involved in buying the leaders and trailers. Even with 120, where the volumes are much, much higher, the cost of the backing paper is more expensive than the cost of the film itself, and the backing paper and leaders and trailers can't be simply purchased as needed.

Rowreidr · Oct 12, 2021

GP3 Offical Account said:
Thanks for your supporting, and yes, as you know the old state-operated factory closed for a long time, our arm is not let GP3 die, so we bring them back to market and transitory stage for us is hard, which did lead some bad experience . Thats the reason we did not open any oversea marketing before, which you bought before are all test phase products in China marketing and someone resell to oversea.
we will keep improving the quality and do the best quality control as well.

If I go back to Huss' original thread about 220 gpx400, it starts off with... "I wrote to SHANGHAI JIANCHENG TECHNOLOGY PTY LTD asking when GPX 400 220 would be available in the US. They responded soon, and I could place a bulk film pre-order which would be shipped directly to me."

Now the "official" GP3 account is supporting this someone else rolled in bathroom and sold it theory? I appreciate the gesture of making an account and actually responding, but not accepting responsibility for the GPX and pretending that it didn't happen? How about an official respond to Huss' thread, which happens to be the first result when I search "Shanghai 220 film" on my Western internet browser?

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

MattKing said:
custom made 220 assembly machine was worn out, (...) Eastman Kodak's 220 assembly machine was also old and in need of expensive repair or replacement, and they too were close to using up their remaining inventory of leaders and trailers. They were only able to continue with 220 for a small number of years after Ilford Harman were forced to stop. They too have real capital constraints - those minimum order requirements for the leaders and trailers are brutal.
Fuji, being Fuji, doesn't share any information about 220.
The biggest factor though is the capital requirements involved in buying the leaders and trailers. Even with 120, where the volumes are much, much higher, the cost of the backing paper is more expensive than the cost of the film itself, and the backing paper and leaders and trailers can't be simply purchased as needed.

MattKing said:
If you look back to the time when Ilford/Harman was forced to de-commission their 220 line, it was due in main to two factors:
1) their existing, custom made 220 assembly machine was worn out, and the cost of repair or replacement was so high (over 300,000 pound sterling) as to make repair or replacement uneconomical, based on projected sales volumes and their very real limitations on the availability of capital; and
2) they had used up the inventory on hand of leader and trailer paper, and the minimum order quantities of the remaining supplier for the leaders and trailers meant that they would have to buy (and pay for ahead of time) several years supply - an equally large burden on their available capital.
Around that time. as I understand it, Eastman Kodak's 220 assembly machine was also old and in need of expensive repair or replacement, and they too were close to using up their remaining inventory of leaders and trailers. They were only able to continue with 220 for a small number of years after Ilford Harman were forced to stop. They too have real capital constraints - those minimum order requirements for the leaders and trailers are brutal.
Fuji, being Fuji, doesn't share any information about 220.
The biggest factor though is the capital requirements involved in buying the leaders and trailers. Even with 120, where the volumes are much, much higher, the cost of the backing paper is more expensive than the cost of the film itself, and the backing paper and leaders and trailers can't be simply purchased as needed.

Thanks for this reply.

So, thanks to your reply, it is clear that 220 film finishing can be automated, contrary to what "GP3 official account" says. But yes, it is clear that financial factors come into play.

However, with the current resurgence of film which includes a wild variety of films, i wouldn't be surprised if two more manufacturers start producing 220 film too.

Cholentpot · Oct 12, 2021

GP3 Offical Account said:
yes, price on China marketing is cheaper than any other country price, but that is due to we are Chinese brand. no import tax no shipping no extra cost add up. and Same reason Kodak is more expensive when we buy them in China. haha.
Hope that explain make sense to western consumer. we did want to open the marketing with bargain price to all.

No-one is China will ever buy up a load at domestic prices and post them up on Ebay at Chinese prices. Nope nope nope.

I do appreciate the dialog though, it's refreshing to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Cholentpot · Oct 12, 2021

flavio81 said:
Thanks for this reply.

So, thanks to your reply, it is clear that 220 film finishing can be automated, contrary to what "GP3 official account" says. But yes, it is clear that financial factors come into play.

However, with the current resurgence of film which includes a wild variety of films, i wouldn't be surprised if two more manufacturers start producing 220 film too.

I've rolled my own 220 and it was not scratched. It was a pain the neck though.

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

Rowreidr said:
If I go back to Huss' original thread about 220 gpx400, it starts off with... "I wrote to SHANGHAI JIANCHENG TECHNOLOGY PTY LTD asking when GPX 400 220 would be available in the US. They responded soon, and I could place a bulk film pre-order which would be shipped directly to me."

Now the "official" GP3 account is supporting this someone else rolled in bathroom and sold it theory? I appreciate the gesture of making an account and actually responding, but not accepting responsibility for the GPX and pretending that it didn't happen? How about an official respond to Huss' thread, which happens to be the first result when I search "Shanghai 220 film" on my Western internet browser?

To be fair, I don't think they have said that. They have only said that current 220 film is made in semi-automated fashion.

I agree with you that they should answer directly to Huss, but you should post the link. Here it is.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/shanghai-gpx-400-220-terrible-quality-control.185048/

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I do appreciate the dialog though, it's refreshing to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Yes. Even though i disagree with @GP3 Offical Account , it's refreshing to see them here. It's always good to have manufacturers willing to interact here.

John Wiegerink · Oct 12, 2021

Yes, I miss people like Simon, who helped keep us straight on our theories as to why Ilford/Harman did this or that. I think GP3 Official Account answered my thoughts about Cat-Labs causing the now price of GP3 film to be higher than it was before. They answered the question by not answering the question. I really wish that the Shanghai GP3 company wouldn't have involved a second or third party for distributing their film, but what's done is done. I used to love getting it off the big auction site directly from Chinese sellers at prices that even a pauper like me could afford. JohnW

Cholentpot · Oct 12, 2021

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, I miss people like Simon, who helped keep us straight on our theories as to why Ilford/Harman did this or that. I think GP3 Official Account answered my thoughts about Cat-Labs causing the now price of GP3 film to be higher than it was before. They answered the question by not answering the question. I really wish that the Shanghai GP3 company wouldn't have involved a second or third party for distributing their film, but what's done is done. I used to love getting it off the big auction site directly from Chinese sellers at prices that even a pauper like me could afford. JohnW

We just need to contact someone in China to buy it at Chinese prices in bulk and then post it up on the auction block.

But like, that's unethical maybe or something. Or it's capitalism. Sometimes the line gets blurred.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2021

flavio81 said:
However, with the current resurgence of film which includes a wild variety of films, i wouldn't be surprised if two more manufacturers start producing 220 film too.

The film is easy to make.
The volumes won't even come close to supporting the cost of adding the necessary leaders and trailers (part of the confectioning).
I don't even know that volumes would support starting from scratch with confectioning 120 - and there is far more of a market for 120.

Bronson Dugnutt · Oct 12, 2021

GP3 is a capable stock, particular formats and confectioning aside.

The availability of 220 can only be regarded as a good thing for those whose use cases prescribe it and for film photography as a whole. As others have said, the more exciting aspect is the idea of 6cm wide film being available in continuous lengths longer than 120, maybe even in bulk. That would bring the format more in line with 35mm and 16mm in terms of raw 'footage' and hopefully spur some innovation in MF film cameras & backs to accommodate an extended format. A modern 16:9 MF Bolsey 8 styled camera with a speed-governed hand crank would be cool

Cholentpot · Oct 12, 2021

Bronson Dugnutt said:
GP3 is a capable stock, particular formats and confectioning aside.

View attachment 288036

The availability of 220 can only be regarded as a good thing for those whose use cases prescribe it and for film photography as a whole. As others have said, the more exciting aspect is the idea of 6cm wide film being available in continuous lengths longer than 120, maybe even in bulk. That would bring the format more in line with 35mm and 16mm in terms of raw 'footage' and hopefully spur some innovation in MF film cameras & backs to accommodate an extended format. A modern 16:9 MF Bolsey 8 styled camera with a speed-governed hand crank would be cool

Competitively priced bulk 120 is something I'd go for.

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

Cholentpot said:
Competitively priced bulk 120 is something I'd go for.

Yep, me too. Count me in, I'd love to buy bulk paperless 120 film. And then roll my own.

flavio81 · Oct 12, 2021

John Wiegerink said:
. I think GP3 Official Account answered my thoughts about Cat-Labs causing the now price of GP3 film to be higher than it was before. They answered the question by not answering the question.

Well, makes perfect sense to me. I've always thought cats are evil, ungrateful sociopaths. Naming a film "Catlabs" is almost like declaring war on film buyers.

Cholentpot · Oct 12, 2021

flavio81 said:
Yep, me too. Count me in, I'd love to buy bulk paperless 120 film. And then roll my own.

I do this with 70mm. Be nice to cut out a few steps though.

destroya · Oct 13, 2021

maybe I should start saving the leader and tail end of my 220 rolls going forward. you never know...

would you roll the film and use it like 220, with no backing paper, or do you you use old 120 backing paper to roll them? I never really thought about rolling your own MF film. in 35mm, for B&W its almost all I do, roll my own. My son calls me cheech or chong when I roll while watching football.

john

Cholentpot · Oct 13, 2021

destroya said:
maybe I should start saving the leader and tail end of my 220 rolls going forward. you never know...

would you roll the film and use it like 220, with no backing paper, or do you you use old 120 backing paper to roll them? I never really thought about rolling your own MF film. in 35mm, for B&W its almost all I do, roll my own. My son calls me cheech or chong when I roll while watching football.

john

When rolling 120 I reuse backing paper. For 220 I cut up old 120 paper and use it and leads and tails.

flavio81 · Oct 13, 2021

destroya said:
maybe I should start saving the leader and tail end of my 220 rolls going forward. you never know...

would you roll the film and use it like 220, with no backing paper, or do you you use old 120 backing paper to roll them? I never really thought about rolling your own MF film. in 35mm, for B&W its almost all I do, roll my own. My son calls me cheech or chong when I roll while watching football.

john

You could use 120 paper too, as long as the leader is of the correct length (which is more or less similar to the length of the 120 paper up to the part where the film kicks in)

MattKing · Oct 13, 2021

flavio81 said:
You could use 120 paper too, as long as the leader is of the correct length (which is more or less similar to the length of the 120 paper up to the part where the film kicks in)

And as long as you add the appropriate 220 "Start" mark.
The length of the trailer is important as well - long enough to provide the necessary exclusion of light, but not too long as to make the entire package of film, leader and trailer too large to be protected by the spool.

flavio81 · Oct 13, 2021

MattKing said:
And as long as you add the appropriate 220 "Start" mark.

Yes, but it appears you could use the 120 start mark as well. From bronica ETRSi back service manual, the adjustment of the start mark position section; i infer the position is more or less similar.

MattKing · Oct 13, 2021

flavio81 said:
Yes, but it appears you could use the 120 start mark as well. From bronica ETRSi back service manual, the adjustment of the start mark position section; i infer the position is more or less similar.

View attachment 288105

It all turns on where you end the leader and attach the film. I believe that you will need to use a slightly different position for the tape that attaches the film to the leader in order to re-use the Start mark.

Shanghai GP3 100 in 220 now available...

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Shanghai GP3 100 in 220 now available...

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