Serious problem with Ilford paper

Les McLean · Jul 9, 2005

Peter, just thought I'd point out that if you are writing to Ilford America they now have no connection with the newly formed Ilford Photo who rose from the ashes of Ilford Imaging UK who were part of the international Ilford group of comapnies. The paper you have was made at the UK plant and you'd be better advised to speak to them. I would be happy to do it on your behalf and get back to you through this thread, please let me know if you want me to do that. I'll be in London for the whole of next week but I still read APUG every night in my hotel so I'd be hopeful that I could get a quick answer for you.

I've looked at the images of the fault that you posted and have seen nothing like it and I'm reluctant to guess at what it may be for that just confuses the issue. I'll pass the link on to the technical people in Ilford Photo for them to add their 2c worth.

Early Riser · Jul 9, 2005

Les, Peter is not having a problem with Ilford, I am. Peter is having a problem with Oriental. The problem that I am having looks exactly like the images that Peter posted. I have never seen anything like it, but it affects 6 different emulsions. I have 3 shows to print for, the soonest to be delivered in less than a month. As of right now I have no workable paper. I have thrice emailed the us-techsupprt@ilford.com, they have yet to reply. Is this the wrong email?

Les McLean · Jul 9, 2005

Early Riser said:
Les, Peter is not having a problem with Ilford, I am. Peter is having a problem with Oriental. The problem that I am having looks exactly like the images that Peter posted. I have never seen anything like it, but it affects 6 different emulsions. I have 3 shows to print for, the soonest to be delivered in less than a month. As of right now I have no workable paper. I have thrice emailed the us-techsupprt@ilford.com, they have yet to reply. Is this the wrong email?

Sorry I got it wrong but obviously the same offer applies. I would think that the US support people would have little interest in paper problems now that they are not part of Ilford Photo. I'll talk to my technical contact in Ilford Photo on Monday when I get to London and post a reply here.

Peter Schrager · Jul 9, 2005

Local Rep?

Les-so you are saying we have no contact/sales force in the US willing to answer questions; help out for problems like this.??
Peter Schrager

Early Riser · Jul 9, 2005

Here is an example of the problem I am having. These are just crude test prints so please no comments about the technicals. The main difference between the 2 images is that one sheet of paper was turned 90 degrees and the pattern turned with the paper, showing that it is the paper that is the source of the problem.

Les McLean · Jul 9, 2005

peters said:
Les-so you are saying we have no contact/sales force in the US willing to answer questions; help out for problems like this.??
Peter Schrager

No Peter, you are putting words into my mouth, I said that the American Ilford is now a totally different comapny, and in a follow up post suggested that the tech people are likely to have little interest in the problem. This is not an official Ilford Photo comment merely my view. I will speak to a technical contact in Ilford UK and try to help get to the bottom of this problem.

I got involved here because I was concerned that it may turn into a knock Ilford thread and I can assure you that from the directors down through all the staff Ilford Photo do care greatly about their customers. I have had an association with these people for many years and have seen it working from the inside and now they are in control of their own destiny that feeling is even stronger.

Early Riser · Jul 9, 2005

Les, I didn't post this as a "knock Ilford" post. Believe me when I say I have wanted Ilford to do well. I have standardized all of my printing for use of Ilford paper and now that I am obligated to hang several shows I find that Ilford has left me out to dry. Did you look at the image I posted? I sincerely appreciate your help with this, but I have to admit feeling seriously screwed right now and I'm pretty pissed at Ilford for putting me in this position.

Do they have ANY actual presence in the US? Any customer service? Any one who I can get help from locally? I can't afford to do this all long distance. I need paper that actually works now, in fact I needed it last week.

Bob Carnie · Jul 9, 2005

Early Riser
I understand your frustration, but are you buying your paper from one supplier or camera shop, where are you located and are you sure this paper hasn't been sitting on the shelf and gone wonkey. I purchase from Ilford US on a daily basis and have been doing so for eons. I have gone through hundreds of boxes of Ilford warmtone and Ilford MG4 as well as rolls of Ilford mural fibre paper this year. I have not had any of the problems shown by You or Peter.
I did purchase Agfa semimatte paper years ago with the effect you are getting and basically I gave it back to the store where I bought it.
I think this boils down to bad paper storage and a very isolated problem.
I know you will get nowhere with complaining to Ilford US as now all they basically do is take orders and redistribute from the Factory.Les is absolutely correct in saying that the only recourse will be with Ilford UK . Take back the paper to your supplier and try another source would be my advise.

PeterB · Jul 9, 2005

Les McLean said:
The paper you have was made at the UK plant and you'd be better advised to speak to them. I would be happy to do it on your behalf and get back to you through this thread

Hi Les, thanks for the offer, but as Early Riser pointed out, I am having the problem with Oriental paper, not Ilford. I have had someone helping me out with my investigation into the excessive mottle and fog. They have been helping for the last month or two and yep the excessive delay has tried my patience at times, but I really want to get some decent Oriental Seagull paper again!

regards
Peter

Early Riser · Jul 10, 2005

More testing today, add another emulsion # to the list of defective Ilford Multigrade IV FB glossy papers, this paper purchased from Calumet.

03a70?c08 (11x14) the question mark is because the numbers are rubbed off and hard to read. Add that to these emulsions:

11x14; 05b701c93, 02c702c42, 92c701c09

16x20; 80a701c09

20x24; 03d702c83, 84b701c19

That makes 7 different Ilford emulsions that are defective, purchased from 2 different sources.

Further tests:

Bergger VC neutral, a very slight mottledness, not nearly as bad as the Ilford, however it did not have anywhere near the contrast at Grade 5 as Ilford multigrade.

Oriental Graded paper, Grade 4, ( not VC) not nearly the contrast that I need, but absolutely no mottling at all!! Perfectly smooth gradation, perfectly clean

Andy Tymon · Jul 10, 2005

Hi Brian,
it seems odd you are getting this mottling over such a range of emulsion batches and papers. I was just wondering if it could be something chemical,or something to do with the water you mixed the chemicals in, have you tried mixing the dev with distilled water? How old is the dev and at what temperature range is the dev used at? It just seems odd that there is a lot of defective paper out there and only two complaints and neither with the same brand of paper. Hope you get this problem solved soon. You could also try mixing the cev up at 1to 5 and developing for a shorter time. Steve Anchell in the darkroom cookbook recomends developing old paper for a shorter time- 30 seconds to 1.5 mins.

gainer · Jul 10, 2005

It appears that you may not have tested the paper without any optical system. Perhaps you should try a flash test with just room light. I'm only trying to cover all the bases, and it wouldn't cost much. It would surely tell you if the problem was strictly in the emulsion. I could see perhaps a fault with one emulsion number, but Ilford is not AFIK a company that would let that go unnoticed or let it slide with so many emulsion numbers. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part. I have used so much of their film and paper without noticing any faults but my own.

Early Riser · Jul 10, 2005

Andy, my water is filtered twice, first through a 5 micron sediment filter, then a 5 micron carbon filter, then it goes through a water softener that is set in accordance with the water quality report from my water utility, it's not over softened. After the water softener, at the point of mixing the chemicals, the water goes through another 5 micron filter. This problem is occurring with 3 different developers, Dektol, Ilford Multigrade and Ilford PQ Universal. The developers are all fresh, the temp range is between 70 and 73 degrees.

Gainer, I know there are a lot of posts here to read but if you look at my posts you'll see that I also did the testing with the optical system nulled and made purely into a source of grade 5 light with the same outcome.

The methods that I use to print are identical to what I have done for several years, split printing, high contrast grades, same lenses and enlarger, same water, same chemicals, same safelights. I was able to print at grade 4 and 5 perfectly a year ago using Ilford paper. Now I can't. When I use ilford at grade 3 or less, the problem does not appear. I just did a test with Oriental fixed grade 4 and it is perfect. Same test with Bergger VC grade 5 is not perfect but much better than ilfords. I just wonder if a change occurred while ilford was in receivership.

Andy Tymon · Jul 10, 2005

Brian, looking at the emulsion codes of the paper you tested there seems to be two numbers that maybe the emulsion or paper batch number 701 and 702 (the central number). maybe the paper is from the same roll just cut and packaged in different size boxes. I noticed the numbers peters put up for the oriental too had like numbers the the batches he had tested ended in 901 and 902 respectively, i wonder if there is a connection?

Early Riser · Jul 10, 2005

Andy, if the center numbers on the emusion code refer to the actual emulsion, and the other numbers are just cut numbers, then in reality only 2 emulsions may be affected. It is quite a coincidence that I have problems with 701 and 702 and Peter has problems with 901 and 902.

The graded Oriental paper that I just tested, and that tested perfectly is grade #4. lot # 330n0903

Bob F. · Jul 10, 2005

Is it possible you can give a couple of sheets to someone you trust who is on a different water supply and uses a different process etc to yourself to try?

I'm just guessing that there may be something in your specific processes, mainly the water, that is exacerbating things; the fact that another paper exhibits a similar problem (albeit to a lesser degree) suggests there may be more than one cause. I do seem to recall in one of the Adams books that he mentioned that Ilford recommended that he NOT excessively filter his water supply. Obviously, this would have been some time ago with different materials, but it may be worth considering.

Bob.

gainer · Jul 10, 2005

You're right. That's what I get for skimming.

Maybe the numbers stand for something different from the emulsion batch, so they are all really the same, but even so I can't see how Ilford would let them go through. They must really be in dire straits or somebody in the work force is getting even.

Early Riser · Jul 10, 2005

Bob F. Ansel talks about having water that is too soft, that having some calcium choride in the water acts like a buffer against acidity. However my water is not heavily softened, I check with the readings from my water utility and set my softener accordingly. My water does not have that slippery feeling you get from overly soft water.

Gainer, I'll be calling Ilford in the UK tomorrow morning, hopefully I'll get some good answers and will be able to resolve this problem.

Jennifer · Jul 11, 2005

Hi,
I seen mention of setting a water softener. On normal water softeners you tell the softener the hardness of your water. You get the number by having the water checked. Beware that setting the softener at a number lower than
the actual hardness can cause permeant damage to it. The hard water flows through resin beads that the minerals cling to. Different capacity ratings of softeners relate to the amount of resin in the softener. More resin means more water can be treated before a regeneration cycle runs. By setting it lower than the true number more minerals will cling to the beads than the softener thinks are there. The softener has a meter in it that measures the number of gallons that went through it. If the minerals build up too much for too long, they will not be removed when a regeneration cycle runs. After awhile the softener will not soften any more, and the resin will have to be replaced. The resin is approx haft the cost of the softener !.

This applys to regular softeners, and perhaps a new type has a variable softening feature I am not aware of. Check you instructions, or contact the company that made it to see.

Jennifer

Todd Barlow · Jul 19, 2005

Any update on how you have made out?

Best regards

Todd

Serious problem with Ilford paper

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