Serious F5 love

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2018

Chan Tran said:
That was me! I decided that the matrix meter is very good for slides but not for color negative (I guess it's the same for B&W but I don't shoot B&W). I compare the reading of the F5 with my Nikon Df and both show very close readings. But the readings that is great for digital and also for slides is not good for color negative film. Similar problem with TTL flash. It's excellent for fill in flash but not good if the flash is the main light source. If the flash is the main light source the F3 does a much better job.

Actually it works well for both. One needs read the manual and use it to learn to use it, before making reasonable critiques.

pentaxuser · Jul 30, 2018

Chan Tran said:
Both of my F4 and F5 rewind knob does the dancing after each exposure but so does the F3 with motor drive.

Thanks for both replies. What I was trying to ask is what does the dancing action look like. Does the rewind knob move slightly up and down as a result of something connected with the exposure mechanism or is this the result of those models with inbuilt motordrive such as the F5 and I presume F4. So no dancing with the F100 unless it has a motordrive attached?

If I may combine my question on the meter issue here: by how much is the exposure wrong for colour neg and in which direction? Does it over or under expose..

How does the problem with full flash TTL manifest itself on the F5 compared to the F3?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Chan Tran · Jul 30, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Actually it works well for both. One needs read the manual and use it to learn to use it, before making reasonable critiques.

What does the manual say?

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Actually it works well for both. One needs read the manual and use it to learn to use it, before making reasonable critiques.

Chan Tran said:
What does the manual say?

Ah, just as I thought. You never looked.

Chan Tran · Jul 30, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Ah, just as I thought. You never looked.

What does it say? Did you read it? It said nothing about the matrix metering system.

swchris · Jul 30, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Ah, just as I thought. You never looked.

You didn't answer Chan Tran's question...

Eric Rose · Jul 30, 2018

I have shot thousands of images each with b&w, c41 and slides with absolutely no exposure issues using my F5.

To suggest it doesn't do a good job with c41 eludes me.

anfenglin · Jul 31, 2018

The roll of Kodak Gold 200 I shot recently was perfectly exposed.

mshchem · Jul 31, 2018

The F5 is the "role model" of every single digit D camera that's come along since. I have always considered the F6 as a cost reduction effort with great auto focus ( MHO) . I still have functioning battery NiMH packs for my F5 (s). For shooting slides it's as good as it gets. And the best part is it has interchangeable finders! I understand the lack of feel point. The F3 is elegant, slim and trim.
The fast AF-D primes are perfect for these cameras 85 1.4, 28 1.4, 135 DC, 300 2.8. I have been burned by AF-S lenses. I still use camera driven lenses even with my D800 and D3. The F5 and D3 are so similar in feel it amazes me.
The one thing that makes me nuts is the little button you have to push to unlock the on/off switch.
I need to get out some Fujichrome and get out there! (auto bracketing +/- 1/3 EV)
Mike

mshchem · Jul 31, 2018

Eric Rose said:
I have shot thousands of images each with b&w, c41 and slides with absolutely no exposure issues using my F5.

To suggest it doesn't do a good job with c41 eludes me.

I agree, If it works for slides how can it not work for negative films? If the prints aren't good could be the printing. Well exposed E-6 is quite an accomplishment for a auto camera from the late 20th century. I still auto bracket if the shot allows it.
Mike

Ste_S · Jul 31, 2018

mshchem said:
I agree, If it works for slides how can it not work for negative films? If the prints aren't good could be the printing. Well exposed E-6 is quite an accomplishment for a auto camera from the late 20th century. I still auto bracket if the shot allows it.
Mike

Matrix metering is great for a few things - E6 with it's narrow dynamic range and digital with it's greater ability to deal with underexposure. For C41 and B&W I'd much rather spot or centre weighted so I can meter for the shadows to make sure they're properly exposed and correct the highlights in darkroom/lightroom after.

anfenglin · Jul 31, 2018

mshchem said:
[...]
The one thing that makes me nuts is the little button you have to push to unlock the on/off switch.
[...]
Mike

Oh god yes, I once owned a Pentax DSLR which did not have that button, nor have I ever held or seen a different camera that has it.
Why have that button to protect yourself from wasting a frame or two in a bag when the bloody thing can fire through an entire roll of film in 4.5 seconds?
I have thought about removing it but I think I am getting used to the damn thing.
But still, it would be better without it.

GarageBoy · Jul 31, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for both replies. What I was trying to ask is what does the dancing action look like. Does the rewind knob move slightly up and down as a result of something connected with the exposure mechanism or is this the result of those models with inbuilt motordrive such as the F5 and I presume F4. So no dancing with the F100 unless it has a motordrive attached?

If I may combine my question on the meter issue here: by how much is the exposure wrong for colour neg and in which direction? Does it over or under expose..

How does the problem with full flash TTL manifest itself on the F5 compared to the F3?

Thanks

pentaxuser

It's not literally dancing, it's the fact the f4 and f5 are one of the few built in motor drive cameras with a rewind knob, so you can watch it spin when you hit the shutter

Chan Tran · Jul 31, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for both replies. What I was trying to ask is what does the dancing action look like. Does the rewind knob move slightly up and down as a result of something connected with the exposure mechanism or is this the result of those models with inbuilt motordrive such as the F5 and I presume F4. So no dancing with the F100 unless it has a motordrive attached?

If I may combine my question on the meter issue here: by how much is the exposure wrong for colour neg and in which direction? Does it over or under expose..

How does the problem with full flash TTL manifest itself on the F5 compared to the F3?

Thanks

pentaxuser

First of all the dancing part. The F4, F5 and F6 has the manual rewind crank although they do have power rewind so that every time the camera advances the film the rewind crank turns. Not really dancing. The F100 has built in motor (you can attach the battery grip for extra batteries but not for adding the motor) but it doesn't have the manual rewind crank. Rewinding must always be done with power.
With the matrix meter, center weighted or even spot if you shoot a narrow dynamic range subject (for example and extreme case you simply fill the whole frame with a gray card) then the exposure are identical and is equally good for both slides and negatives at it put the exposure at the best part of the curve. However, if the subject has high dynamic range the matrix metering system is quite smart and it tends to keep the brightest part within the characteristic curve and not causing a loss of details in the bright part. The dark area would be dark but they are OK with slides. Doing the same thing is bad for negative film as you need sufficient exposure for the shadow to keep the details there and since negative film have very high tolerance for over exposure the highlight is not loss. The matrix metering tends to exposure the highlight well but buries the shadow in the grainy mud.

destroya · Jul 31, 2018

I partially agree with Chan regarding the matrix meter on the F4/5, but only if I shoot neg film at box speed. his description about how the matrix handles the highlights and shadows, it was designed for slide film. IF I want to use matrix metering for neg film on those cameras, I then expose at half box speed and get great results. So both sides in my mind are correct. If I use center weighted, then I shoot at my measured speed. its all about knowing your equipment.

I agree the F5 is a great tool. just to heavy for me to use regularly. it comes out for slide film special occasions only. otherwise its the F3, fe-2 FM3a for 35mm

Sirius Glass · Jul 31, 2018

Chan Tran said:
What does it say? Did you read it? It said nothing about the matrix metering system.

swchris said:
You didn't answer Chan Tran's question...

Actually it does. It talks about choosing one or more sensors, locating the sensors correctly, and keeping the sky out of the sensor area when taking readings.

Eric Rose said:
I have shot thousands of images each with b&w, c41 and slides with absolutely no exposure issues using my F5.

To suggest it doesn't do a good job with c41 eludes me.

Eric, I think that they are experiencing Operator Assisted Failures.

Chan Tran · Jul 31, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Actually it does. It talks about choosing one or more sensors, locating the sensors correctly, and keeping the sky out of the sensor area when taking readings.

Eric, I think that they are experiencing Operator Assisted Failures.

In which pages did it say choosing sensors and locating sensor correctly and keeping the sky out of the sensor when take readings?

pentaxuser · Jul 31, 2018

Thanks for the replies, Chan Tran. So, if I can summarise what I think you are saying: In your view the Nikon matrix metering sacrifices shadow detail in C41 colour neg and presumably B&Ws for the sake of getting slide exposures right at box speed. Was this a deliberate decision on the part of Nikon, I wonder and is it peculiar to the Nikon F5 or all Nikon models with matrix metering and are other makes who use matrix metering subject to the same "metering bias" towards slides or have other camera makers skewed their meters differently?.

What might constitute a high dynamic range in this context and in shots with this high dynamic range, shot at box speed can shorter development in the case of B&W take care of any danger of blown highlights? I appreciate that C41 does not have this development adjustment.

While C41 negative films usually have about a one stop safety margin towards underexposure, would this not take care of the problem?I note that in destroya's case, who partly agrees with your analysis, he sets his EI to 200 so only compensates to the tune of one stop. Effectively if 200 is the right speed then box speed is only one stop under exposed which is within the safety margin, isn't?

Does Nikon make any reference to the need to override the matrix metering in the case of high dynamic range scenes when using C41 film or B&W only? One of life's irony's may be that, given the relative collapse of slide film compared to C41 or B&W film, Nikon may have backed "the wrong horse" as they say.

This whole question of matrix metering has given me a lot of food for thought but this is my last thought/question for now.

Can I assume that there is no built-in bias towards slides in a decent reflectance meter such that in a scene with a balance of tones i.e. one that would balance our as zone V the Nikon F5's matrix metering will give an inferior exposure which will leave shadows in the grainy mud compared to a reflectance hand held meter in a high dynamic range scene?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jul 31, 2018

Chan Tran said:
In which pages did it say choosing sensors and locating sensor correctly and keeping the sky out of the sensor when take readings?

One can choose to put a sensor in an area that they want to be Zone x and then take the reading and adjust to put the exposure in that Zone. By the way that was discussed in the F100 manual. If yours does not have it, you must have an inferior camera. ROTFLMAO!!!

Eric Rose · Jul 31, 2018

It's all about learning to use your tools properly. Once I got a camera with a built in meter one of the first things I did was figure out the meters sensitivity pattern. Basic craftsmanship imho. Anyone who thinks they can just point a camera and shoot expecting perfect exposures every time is nothing more than a snap shooter or delusional.

Huss · Jul 31, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
One can choose to put a sensor in an area that they want to be Zone x and then take the reading and adjust to put the exposure in that Zone. By the way that was discussed in the F100 manual. If yours does not have it, you must have an inferior camera. ROTFLMAO!!!

Metering is discussed on page 44 and 45 of the F100 manual, and 49 and 50 of the F5 manual. And it does not describe anything that you claim and have ridiculed Chan with.

I agree with Chan. Matrix is biased for slide film given how it underexposes anything that has highlights or backlights in it.
I've seen it on my F100 and F6. I prefer to know what the camera is doing so I only use center or spot.

Chan Tran · Jul 31, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
One can choose to put a sensor in an area that they want to be Zone x and then take the reading and adjust to put the exposure in that Zone. By the way that was discussed in the F100 manual. If yours does not have it, you must have an inferior camera. ROTFLMAO!!!

Although I don't have the F100 I do have the manual. Where does it say that in the F100 manual? Don't tell me that I don't read the manual.

Chris G · Jul 31, 2018

I highly recommend Thom Hogans guide for the F5. Especially the sections on exposure, autofocus and flash. There is a lot of information in the guide and I found it indispensable for learning and understanding the camera.

http://www.filmbodies.com/accessories/complete-guides/complete-guide-to-the-nikon-5.html

Sirius Glass · Jul 31, 2018

Obviously everyone else that uses the F5 figured out how to get good exposures for slides and negatives by reading the manual.

Ste_S · Aug 1, 2018

Lol at Sirius Glass with his manual claims after not reading it then trying to double down on it in typically aggressive manner.

Matrix metering for C41 was great for people who didn't have access to a darkroom and used to send their film off to a lab and get the negs and prints back in the post. It usually gives you the best compromise for a scene.

Serious F5 love

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