Sequence of Multiple Toning (Sepia, Selenium, Gold)

[Peter Holland]

As a first question on these forums, I'd appreciate any advice on the best sequence for using two or three toners for fiber prints (Ilford Warmtone.) I was originally thinking Selenium (Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner), then Sepia (bleach and redevelop thiocarbamide) then Gold (Blue-Gold Toner with ammonium thiocyanate and gold chloride), but I've also heard first Sepia, then Selenium: one book reference (Eddie Ephraum's 'Gradient Light' suggests the latter, another, 'The Darkroom Cookbook', is more ambiguous but seems to opt for the former. I'm assuming the bleach for the Sepia, and the Selenium, are incomplete, leaving some silver for the next toner.

Also, is it advisable to use a hypo clearing agent (HCA) wash after each toner, or only after selenium?

 

[clayne]

I do Se->Su, only because it's easier in the workflow - i.e. I don't need to full wash prints to Selenium tone, they only need to be fixed adequately (I use 2-bath). After Se toning, I do a reasonably full wash - then polysulfide tone, then wash again, and dry.

I've never understood why one can't go back and forth between Se->Su without a wash in between yet at the same time there are polytoners which contain both. Does anyone know how the latter allows things to succeed without staining?

 

[Dan Henderson]

It depends on the results you want; they change with different orders of toners. I recommend you get a copy of Tim Rudman's The Photographer's Toning Book. It contains good descriptions of the various permutations, with photographic examples of many.
Dan

 

[Bob Carnie]

I bleach sepia first, gold second and finally selenium.

I enjoy watching the progression , I prefer this combination on cold tone papers though , as Ilford Warmtone goes too warm for my liking.

 

[Peter Holland]

Thanks to those who replied on multiple toning sequence

Thanks to those who replied; I think I understand now there may be just somewhat different results with different sequences, and there are clearly individual preferences. I'll try a few different sequences of toners. I am curious about the preference expressed for cold toned paper for toning: my experience with selenium by itself, with Ilford multigrade, is that there's very little color shift even at 1:7 dilution for 10 minutes.

 

[MattKing]

I did a bit of experimentation with this last night.

Some prints were toned in Selenium toner for 6 minutes first, then washed, then bleached and re-developed in Sepia bleach and toner.

They show very little colour change.

Next, I toned some more prints for 30 seconds in Selenium, and then washed them, then bleached them for one minute in dilute (1:1) Sepia bleach, followed by four minutes in Sepia toner.

They show an intermediate change in tone.

From this I deduce that if you Selenium tone too far, Sepia toning afterwards will be rendered ineffective.

The Selenium Toner is Berg selenium toner at 1:10. The Sepia bleach and toner is Kodak Sepia II, mixed as per the package directions.

Matt

PS the recipients for Postcard Exchange 19 will be getting a variety of different toning effects on their cards

 

[Bob Carnie]

I always work from sepia to selenium
With a minimal bleach then sepia, the highlight region gets tone slightly that I like
I follow with gold which gives a nice peach colour in the uppermid to highlight.
I then follow with selenium 1:5 which goes into the shadows-midtone.

I prefer coldtone as the print does not go to warm and I keep some really nice blacks with softer warm highlights.

just personal preference.

From Tim's book of toning I gather this is as about archival as it can get for silver prints.

I did a bit of experimentation with this last night.

Some prints were toned in Selenium toner for 6 minutes first, then washed, then bleached and re-developed in Sepia bleach and toner.

They show very little colour change.

Next, I toned some more prints for 30 seconds in Selenium, and then washed them, then bleached them for one minute in dilute (1:1) Sepia bleach, followed by four minutes in Sepia toner.

They show an intermediate change in tone.

From this I deduce that if you Selenium tone too far, Sepia toning afterwards will be rendered ineffective.

The Selenium Toner is Berg selenium toner at 1:10. The Sepia bleach and toner is Kodak Sepia II, mixed as per the package directions.

Matt

PS the recipients for Postcard Exchange 19 will be getting a variety of different toning effects on their cards

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I do what Clayne and MattKing do, selenium first, polysulfide second. However, the sequence make a difference in tonal change. You need to try what you prefer, but keep in mind that FB toning in selenium needs less prior washing (10 min) than toning in polysulfide (30 min).

You can also try combination toning by mixing selenium and polysulfide to one toner. When preparing a selenium-polysulfide toner, final image tones can be influenced by the mixing ratio. Kodak recommends a working-strength selenium-to-polysulfide ratio of 1:4 for warm image tones. Adding 1-3% balanced alkali will stabilize the solution, otherwise, consider the mixture for one-time use only. As with plain, direct polysulfide toning, prints must be fully fixed and washed for 30 minutes prior to combination toning, which is in turn followed by an intense rinse and a washing aid application, before the print is placed into the final wash.

 

[naugastyle]

At first I preferred selenium first followed by brown toner, but now I prefer it reversed. Not totally sure if it's because I'm doing it differently or if my perception of the result changed.

With sepia I have only really done it sepia (thiourea) first, then selenium, due to bad results trying to bleach selenium-toned prints. But from reading this, I'm seeing that perhaps the problem is that they were selenium-toned too long to be bleached well. Got some really wonky colors upon bleaching which just got worse in the sepia.

 

[brian steinberger]

I prefer to multi-tone MGWT, a paper that tones so wonderfully! For sepia and selenium I chose to do the sepia first. The reason is simple, you bleach as deeply into the tones as you want, then tone, then throw it in the selenium. The reverse can be done, but you have to watch you don't tone too much in selenium first, then the bleach has nothing to work on. I find the result more orange this way, than the more pleasing split of sepia first.

For Viradon and Selenium I tone in selenium first, as I've found in the past that the selenium doesn't affect much after Viradon, maybe because I'm toning too much in Viradon. I tone for 4 minutes at 1+9 in selenium first, then Viradon for 5 minutes. This is by far my favorite tone on Ilford MGWT. Beautiful!!

For gold, selenium and sepia, you need to do sepia first, then gold, then selenium.

 

[Anon Ymous]

...For sepia and selenium I chose to do the sepia first. The reason is simple, you bleach as deeply into the tones as you want, then tone, then throw it in the selenium. The reverse can be done, but you have to watch you don't tone too much in selenium first, then the bleach has nothing to work on. I find the result more orange this way, than the more pleasing split of sepia first...

I second that. The problem with selenium first is that I can't really control it's progress and some parts that seem to be unaffected are already toned, depending also on the dilution of the toner. Stronger selenium toner solutions will also tone somewhat more in the washing stage, it won't stop with a brief wash. I find it far more controllable to do sepia first, then selenium.

 

[tim rudman]

Hi Peter,
As has been so well described, you can do pretty much in any order for different results with different papers.
I often use the 3 toners you mention with MGWT. I start with selenium or sepia and use gold last to either add a very subtle warmth to the sepia colour, or if I want, to turn it frankly salmon or red colour. (if you do gold first it will cool off the tones towards blue, starting in the lighter tones and this will resist a subsequent sepia bleach, but will accept selenium)
Re selenium or sepia: I find that if I split sepia tone first the darker tones easily go very warm in selenium. This is because the bleach action is not truely exclusive to the lighter tones first, it also has some action in the colder larger silver grains in the shadows. This is not visually obvious until you take it into selenium, and then soon it gives a warmer result. If I want a colder tone in the low values I either use MGIV, as Bob does, or if I want the richer sepia that MGWT gives I use Se first - very carefully controlling the time - and then, after HCA & wash, sepia. This gives a cooler shadow tone with the sepia highlights.
You can demonstrate this easily by toning sepia > selenium & timing how long the se takes to warm up the blacks. Then expose another strip to max black and cut into pieces and, without Sepia, tone in Se for varying times up to and beyong the time of the first print. It will be much more difficult to warm up.
The danger of doing selenium first is that you could tone too long and this could then resist the sepia bleach. That is simply a matter of timing though.
Hope this helps
Tim

 

[naugastyle]

Great info, Tim. I will give selenium > sepia another try. I think I'm getting a cool look with sepia > selenium but not the one I originally intended, which was warm highlights and cold blacks...instead it's just something unusual that I also happen to like.

 

[Jim Noel]

I did a bit of experimentation with this last night.

Some prints were toned in Selenium toner for 6 minutes first, then washed, then bleached and re-developed in Sepia bleach and toner.

They show very little colour change.

Next, I toned some more prints for 30 seconds in Selenium, and then washed them, then bleached them for one minute in dilute (1:1) Sepia bleach, followed by four minutes in Sepia toner.

They show an intermediate change in tone.

From this I deduce that if you Selenium tone too far, Sepia toning afterwards will be rendered ineffective.

The Selenium Toner is Berg selenium toner at 1:10. The Sepia bleach and toner is Kodak Sepia II, mixed as per the package directions.

Matt

PS the recipients for Postcard Exchange 19 will be getting a variety of different toning effects on their cards

If you only toned for 30 seconds with Se you did not give it sufficient time to do anything. It takes a while for the selenium to have an effect on the silver grains. Basically in the end you only sepia toned the print.

 

[MattKing]

If you only toned for 30 seconds with Se you did not give it sufficient time to do anything. It takes a while for the selenium to have an effect on the silver grains. Basically in the end you only sepia toned the print.

Thanks Jim.

It was far from an extensive test.

I wonder what the "dividing" line might be - i.e. how much selenium toning is needed to leave the silver grains partially toned, and still susceptible to a partial sepia tone? Something between 30 seconds and 6 minutes I guess.

More testing may be on the agenda.

Matt

 

[clayne]

I tone for 1:30 in Se 1+20 (KRST) -> 10 seconds in Viradon 1+50 -> Sodium Sulfite 20g/1000ml. I know when to yank it from the selenium when I see the overall tone go slightly warm but no large color shift happening. If you do this, you'll have enough silver in the shadows to sepia tone.

 

[BOBBYCTKR]

Which Sepia Toner brand to use in Ilford MGIV FB ?

Never done split toning. Thinking of doing it . Which brand is reccomended to go with KRST and Ilfor MGIV FB paper ?