Semistand Ultimate?

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I have to ask myself this question as I weigh the benefits.

Here is my technique:

Tri-X 400 in 120 format, exposed at box speed, incident meter reading usually.
1. Pre-wet for however long it takes to mix developer
2. Pyrocat 1+1+100 @ 70*F, 30 minutes, agitate first minute then once again after 15 minutes
3. Water rinse for stop bath
4. Fix Ilford Hypam 1+4 for 2x clearing time
5. Wash
Plus-X 125 in 120 format, exposed at box speed, incident meter reading.
Same regimen as above, but with Rodinal 1+100. Same time, everything.

Benefits: Highlights are extremely compensated, never blew highlights. Shadows get a boost. This means that I almost always have great negs to print, even if I have crazy exposures. Recently I photographed in Las Vegas with lots of chrome and sun reflections, and a very old camera to boot. Perfect negs, perfect contrast, even though I didn't even have a meter with me. Average brightness range negs look fine too. And you get really cool edge effects.

Drawbacks: Bromide drag can be a problem. If you don't like the edge effects this can be a negative aspect.

I understand that with sheets and even with rolls that are calculated according to some systematic approach like the Zone System or BTZS etc can yield negatives that are probably better, but for just average shooting with 35mm or 120 film - I can't think of a better way to develop my negs.

What do you all think? I'd like to hear what your opinions are with standard development and agitation patterns compared to stand or semistand development.

Thanks for entertaining the thought!

- Thomas

 

[Thanasis]

Thanks for this Thomas,

I've been looking for an entry point into a Rodinal stand/semi-stand development system. I'm going to try the Rodinal with the Plus-X i've got in 120. How does the grain look on Plus-X with Rodinal 1:100 stand-developed compared to Tri-X 400 (albeit with Pyrocat)? I don't mind the grain of Tri-X in normal development (using ID-11 or HC-110) but from what I've read, stand development in Rodinal increases grain and I'm not sure I want that. Presumably Plus-X is finer grained?

Thanks + regards,
Thanasis

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I understand that with sheets and even with rolls that are calculated according to some systematic approach like the Zone System or BTZS etc can yield negatives that are probably better, but for just average shooting with 35mm or 120 film - I can't think of a better way to develop my negs. - Thomas

I've found nothing better than semi-stand with Rodinal for 35mm role film (as long as a little increased grain isn't an issue). My dilutions and times are a bit different than yours but the same idea. I've yet to experience bromide drag and that includes 25 sheets of 8x10 and maybe 150 sheets of 4x5. I do tap the bubles off rather agressively after both agitation cycles.... I'm thinking of doing all my sheet film this way. Hate to give up the ease of my new slosher tray though.

See Steve Sherman's posts and articles on the subject. His prints are stunning in person.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think this is a good opportunity for you to start liking grain... I used to be allergic to grain. Now I embrace it. Plus-X and Rodinal renders beautiful grain. Crisp, clear, and distinctive grain and a VERY sharp appearance.
I get a little less grain with Plus-X and Rodinal than I do with Tri-X in Pyrocat. But the cool thing is that the prints actually look similar from these two combinations.
Try it, I'm sure you'll like it.
- Thomas

Thanks for this Thomas,

I've been looking for an entry point into a Rodinal stand/semi-stand development system. I'm going to try the Rodinal with the Plus-X i've got in 120. How does the grain look on Plus-X with Rodinal 1:100 stand-developed compared to Tri-X 400 (albeit with Pyrocat)? I don't mind the grain of Tri-X in normal development (using ID-11 or HC-110) but from what I've read, stand development in Rodinal increases grain and I'm not sure I want that. Presumably Plus-X is finer grained?

Thanks + regards,
Thanasis

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thanks for your insight, Shawn. I did have bromide drag with Neopan 400 in Pyrocat while doing the half hour development cycle. But never with Tri-X or Plus-X.
I will definitely try it with sheets one of these days when I have tanks to develop them. Right now it's trays (back to basics), so it might be a bit dull standing around in the darkroom waiting for fifteen minutes between agitations... It would be slightly too many seconds to count with the metronome

- Thomas

I've found nothing better than semi-stand with Rodinal for 35mm role film (as long as a little increased grain isn't an issue). My dilutions and times are a bit different than yours but the same idea. I've yet to experience bromide drag and that includes 25 sheets of 8x10 and maybe 150 sheets of 4x5. I do tap the bubles off rather agressively after both agitation cycles.... I'm thinking of doing all my sheet film this way. Hate to give up the ease of my new slosher tray though.

See Steve Sherman's posts and articles on the subject. His prints are stunning in person.

 

[2F/2F]

Very nice.

How bad is the Bromide streaking? Could you put up an example?

I have never gone to that degree of stand development. I use the same basic idea all the time (with Ilford HC), but I just reduce the frequency of agitation. I normally combine this method with a push, and develop three to five times as long as normal, and let it stand three minutes between agitations. It definitely makes a difference, but I have never had noticeable streaks or edge effects. Definitely sharper grain, reinforcement of the lower tones, and more contrast there, but never a surreal look or streaks. I will probably experiment with 5-minute intervals soon and see what happens!

 

[Steve Sherman]

I have to ask myself this question as I weigh the benefits.


Benefits: Highlights are extremely compensated, never blew highlights. Shadows get a boost. This means that I almost always have great negs to print, even if I have crazy exposures. Recently I photographed in Las Vegas with lots of chrome and sun reflections, and a very old camera to boot. Perfect negs, perfect contrast, even though I didn't even have a meter with me. Average brightness range negs look fine too. And you get really cool edge effects.


- Thomas

Finally, someone is beginning to understand the benefits beyond perceived sharpness. Welcome to the means which will allow creative possibilities never before attainable.

 

[2F/2F]

"Finally, someone is beginning to understand the benefits beyond perceived sharpness. Welcome to the means which will allow creative possibilities never before attainable."

Finally someone???

 

[Jerevan]

Bromide drag? With Rodinal? I thought that wasn't possible, or am I mistaken? Or is "bromide drag" just sloppy wording for something else?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I haven't had bromide drag with Rodinal, but I've had it with Pyrocat. I actually threw away the negs with problems, but to illustrate how they looked... If you stand the film up on one of its edges, it's as if someone was pouring just a little bit of honey onto the edge and it slowly runs down the side of the film. It's uneven too, so in some places it runs further down the emulsion while in others it stays almost all the way at the top.
But never with Rodinal.
- Thomas

 

[Jerevan]

Why I asked was because I heard somewhere that for some reason, you can't get bromide drag with Rodinal. Which may or may not be true.

 

[dmcmahon]

very interesting, Thomas. I have recently been experimenting with Rodinal with my 4x5 sheet film. Its always been a problem to get the proper foreground exposure and not blow out the sky. (I don't like using graduated filters.)
I found that tray processing with slow but constant agitation @ 1:100 @ 75º for appx. 12 minutes gives beautiful negs. I have not had the opportunity to print any of these negs yet so I have to wait and see what has happened with the grain.
I did get the bromide drag when I tried Rodinal 1:50 in the slosher tray with semi stand development. Plus the dilution was too strong. the clouds look pretty 'hot'.
I find that 75º helps to cut the time to a bearable amount. I don't think I could stand 30 minutes.
david mcmahon

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I find that 75º helps to cut the time to a bearable amount. I don't think I could stand 30 minutes.

Terrible joke, but isn't that the real reason why it's called STAND development?

I think the long times are practical, but only if the film is in a daylight tank.

- Thomas

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Allting ar mojligt! Anything is possible. I'd like to see a scientific explanation to why that wouldn't be possible. I have had, for what it's worth, uneven development with Rodinal in an extreme minimal agitation situation with Ilford Pan-F+ and FP4+. But that was probably my fault as the problem went away when I mixed the chemistry more thoroughly prior to pouring it into the tank, and agitated more vigorously for the first minute.

- Thomas

Why I asked was because I heard somewhere that for some reason, you can't get bromide drag with Rodinal. Which may or may not be true.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

I have never tried stand development and would not want to run the risk of bromide drag on any of my negs. I am not berating using the stand method as I know that some folks get really great results with it. However, remember Pyrocat HD, and MC were designed for use as a continuous agitiation developer with MC being the slightly more active variant. That said, I have used what Sandy King calls Extreme Minimal Agitation (EMA) at 72 degrees with my favorite film.. Neopan-400 and TMAX-400. Using the EMA method I get really clean negs, with decent edge effects, and consistent development. No drag, or anomalies.

I believe EMA is the best compromise between constant agitation methods and stand development. Shorter dev times, but with almost the same benefits as stand development without the potential problems. For those that care, my workflow for Neopan-400 is to rate it at 200. Pre-soak at 72 degrees for 5 minutes. Mix Pyrocat HD 1:1:100 also at 72 degrees. Set timer for a 14 minute countdown. Pour in developer and constantly agitate for first 2 minutes (count down reads 12 minutes!) and let sit until countdown is at 9 minutes then agitate for 10 seconds. Repeat at 6 minutes, and again at 3 minutes. Dump dev, STOP, Fix.

For TMAX-400 rate film at 320, 72 degrees, same dilution. Dev time is 16 minutes, again agitate for first minute then again for 10 seconds at 12 minutes, 8 minutes, 4 minutes, , stop and fix as usual.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hey man, don't disrespect brilliance and genius when you see it... Just kidding, of course.

The only reason I brought it up was to see other people's opinions of this technique, and also to reveal to others that may not know about it.

- Thomas

"Finally, someone is beginning to understand the benefits beyond perceived sharpness. Welcome to the means which will allow creative possibilities never before attainable."

Finally someone???

 

[gainer]

Why I asked was because I heard somewhere that for some reason, you can't get bromide drag with Rodinal. Which may or may not be true.

When you have a film without bromide or other halide, you won't get bromide drag, but something else will drag. The bromide is the product of reduction of the silver bromide. It is acidic and also a retrainer of development. Whether or not your developer contains bromide when development starts, it surely does after it has proceeded a while.

The bromide that is in the developer at the start is uniformly distributed and does not cause the bromide drag. The bromide that is generated by development is supposed in stand development to be more concentrated in areas of greatest exposure, thus restraining the highlights more than the shadows, thus giving rise to some mythical powers of some developers. (If you have ever seen the Paterson propaganda about Acutol, you know what I mean by "Mythical". Their sample characteristic curve had its maximum slope at 0 development.) If only this bromide would stay where it was generated! Trouble is, it changes the local specific gravity of the solution, thereby causing movement, thereby causing some edge effects cherished by some, and some flow patterns cherished by none.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

....Trouble is, it changes the local specific gravity of the solution, thereby causing movement, thereby causing some edge effects cherished by some, and some flow patterns cherished by none.

And I really do like those edge effects. I can understand why somebody might not, however. Thanks for laying out the science behind it, Patrick.
- Thomas

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Can't speak for stand development, but its cousin Divided Development may have drag problems. My experience says it's a crap shoot, some films, some DD's. I avoid the problem by doing a gentle inversion every.....um, when it seems logical. OK, 2 or 3 during Bath B.

 

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Just finished developing a roll of Tmax 400 in 120. I used Andrew's times and my dilution was 1:1:100. The images were shot in an old Oak forest in Los Osos California. Most of the shots had a 4-5 stop range. The neg's look great and no drag at all. Can't wait to print them.

Jim

 

[Steve Sherman]

See Steve Sherman's posts and articles on the subject. His prints are stunning in person.

Thanks for the kind words Shawn.

I probably have the benefit of working through the pitfalls of the process more so than others. In the beginning of the process for me I too experienced some bromide drag, about 20% of the time. Typically, I would develop film for 1 hour with one agitation in the middle of the process. Bromide drag is likely what Sandy King alluded to when he said, “When the process works correctly extraordinary results are possible.” Those first negatives from the process were so dramatically different than anything I had ever done before it was impossible to let the drawbacks sidetrack my interest.

My process has evolved to… total time in developer 20-75 minutes, always 2 agitation cycles of 20seconds. Ordinary Pyrocat HD diluted 1 -1.5 – 150 / 200. Initial agitation of 1-1.5 minutes @ 70 degrees. Maybe the single biggest technique change, agitation is in an up and down motion, never in a stirring motion. The process is largely intuitive for me, I have developed enough film to come to an educated guess for the first sheet of film, always shooting an identical second sheet of film makes the process nearly infallible for my methodology.

The greatest benefit for my photography is the ability to photograph in almost any conceivable lighting condition, from nearly no contrast, to scenes where the contrast range is fully twice what the accepted norm is for ordinary photographic paper. These type lighting conditions have become the norm for me so it was out of necessity that I work through the pitfalls. All that said, make no mistake, there is no substitute for the quality of light in which you make photographs in, light is the single most important component of a successful image.

One more thing, which makes the process bearable for me. When the presoak and initial agitation is complete, I wear a sports stopwatch around my neck; I start the timing at the completion of the first agitation cycle and walk out of the darkroom for however many minutes until the next agitation cycle, repeat until the film is ready to stop and fix.

As we all aspects of creative photography, no one method or approach is correct for everyone’s likes and dislikes. Reduced agitation development has become the only way I process film and as Shawn indicated, I am pleased with my results.

Cheers!

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Steve, thank you for your follow-up. I will try your technique, but since I use roll film, do you know of any differences? It appears to me that you're shooting sheets, and developing them in deep tanks on hangers. How do you suggest agitating with a daylight tank for roll film? I just do gentle torso inversions, trying not to stir the chemistry too much to create air bubbles.
I probably would use Pyrocat for Plus-X too, but I've had problems. But Rodinal is a good compensating developer too, and I yesterday started playing around with HC-110 just to shake it up a little. I like what I see so far at high dilutions.
- Thomas

 

[Richard Wasserman]

I want to chime in here to say that I use stand development with Pyrocat HD and 4x5 FP-4+ in a slosher tray and it works very well,I get very even negatives with no mottling or streaking. So far I have used this technique to photograph scenes of extreme contrast range and have been able to make photos in places I couldn't conceive of before. My developing regimen is similar to Steve Sherman's. It takes a little testing to work out the details, but the results are definitely worth it. I use a stainless steel tray and invert another tray on top. This allows me to open the door of my darkroom so I can leave while the film is doing its thing without worrying about fogging.

Richard Wasserman

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I want to chime in here to say that I use stand development with Pyrocat HD and 4x5 FP-4+ in a slosher tray and it works very well,I get very even negatives with no mottling or streaking. So far I have used this technique to photograph scenes of extreme contrast range and have been able to make photos in places I couldn't conceive of before. My developing regimen is similar to Steve Sherman's. It takes a little testing to work out the details, but the results are definitely worth it. I use a stainless steel tray and invert another tray on top. This allows me to open the door of my darkroom so I can leave while the film is doing its thing without worrying about fogging.

Richard Wasserman

I follow the similar Pyrocat developing procedures to those that you and Steve Sherman describe with excellent results - even negatives with no mottling or streaking. I develop my roll film in SS tanks with agitation by inversion. With sheet film I develop in Slosher Trays (and in ABS Plastic Tanks) with no discernable difference in the results.

Developing sheet film in ABS Plastic Tanks, I agitate by inversion. Developing in Slosher Trays, I agitate by lifting alternate corners of the tray.

 

[chrisf]

I have used the method Steve described in View Camera a couple years ago. I see from your post above the proportions are different now than in the article.

I use Fp4, soaking a few minutes in water while I mix the Pyrocat-HD 1.5:1:150. Agitation is 1.5 minutes and then 10 seconds every quarter of time. I made some tanks and I cover them with curtain lining material, then I go out do other things until it's agitation time. I have had some uneven development around the hanger tops which could be from improper agitation but for the most part I have been very happy with this method.

chris