Semi Stand development & streaking

[Willie Jan]

Hi,

I did a test with semi stand development:

Adox chs100 film in Jobo tank.
Pyrocat 1:1:100 at 20 degrees celcius
Prewash 3min.
First minute agitate continiously, after that each 30 seconds for 7 minutes.

After that I leave the tank standing for 12 minutes.
The result is a neg with streaking lines (bromide drag) over the neg.
Is it possible to prevent this?
The contrast of the neg itself is nice with this method. Only if I could prevent the streaking lines to appear.

Prior i tried to use high diluted, but this gave the same result. Streaks and points where the neg had a development dot. I changed the method to see what happend if I first developed some time and after that leaved the tank...

But this gave also the streaking problems. Is this related to pyrocat?

 

[juan]

I'd suggest agitating for a minute and a half at the beginning. Then, I would agitate at regular intervals throughout. I agitate at 1/3 and 2/3, or, with long development times, 1/4 - 1/2- 3/4.

Also, when you agitate, do so vigorously. Invert the tank as you would with regular development. Don't just tip it.

I use pyrocat at 1.5:1:150 and don't have streaking using the above agitation.

Good luck.
juan

 

[Lee L]

I've had problems with certain film and developer combinations and stand development. You can get most of the benefits of stand with reduced agitation techniques. I found that with APX films and Rodinal I had to agitate at least once every 10 minutes or more frequently to prevent streaking. I've now gone to agitation at least once every 3 to 5 minutes, usually at intervals of 1/3 to 1/4 of the total development time to avoid the problem. With times of 8 minutes or shorter, I'll go half the time. This seems to solve the streaking problems, but allows the benefits of increased shadow detail while holding the highlights, coaxing the film into having more of a shoulder. I can't speak to the acutance effects, as I haven't tested that systematically.

Lee

 

[KenR]

I have gotten streaking with PanF but not TriX or TMY2 in HC110 at 1:100 for 30 minutes with 2 shakes at 7, 15 and 24 minutes. Film base differences, emulsion differences, ISO related or all of the above?

 

[Willie Jan]

I've now gone to agitation at least once every 3 to 5 minutes

Probably i have to dilute more than 1:1:100.
Otherwise the developer for the highlights would still be active after 3 minutes and i get to dense negs.

Is there some kind of table that shows how long it takes for a certain dilution before the highlight developer is exhausted??

That would be a nice thing to know.

 

[Lee L]

Probably i have to dilute more than 1:1:100.
Otherwise the developer for the highlights would still be active after 3 minutes and i get to dense negs.

Is there some kind of table that shows how long it takes for a certain dilution before the highlight developer is exhausted??

That would be a nice thing to know.

I haven't seen a table of this kind, nor would I expect to find one.

You might ask Sandy King about managing greater dilutions of Pyrocat HD to decrease contrast. Or perhaps others will comment. I haven't used it ... yet.

Lee

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Standing development is versatile in this regard.

I used to use Rodinal at 1+200 dilution to process Kodak Plus-X film from my pinhole camera. I made sure that there was enough developer concentrate to fully process the film, which I concluded was about 3ml. So 600ml of solution per 120 film (8x10 or 36exp 35mm equivalent).

What happens is that there is enough energy for the developer to fully develop the film. The frames that got less exposure in the highlights continued to develop longer than those that got more exposure. So frame to frame you got more even densities with varying exposure.
Basically, all you have to do is to find the balance between concentrate volume and exhaustion - once. Then you can continue to use that because you will never need more or less than that exact amount to process your film, regardless of exposure.

The down side is that you have to agitate the HELL out of the film when you do agitate. I souped the film for one hour, agitating for one full minute at the beginning, and 20s at the half hour mark. Film was exposed at box speed.

Pyrocat, I found, needed agitation more often to avoid bromide streaking. I did get bromide drag with Rodinal also, but much less. I wouldn't advice anybody to risk valuable film like this, agitate once every ten minutes or so instead and run much less risk with the bromide.

Probably i have to dilute more than 1:1:100.
Otherwise the developer for the highlights would still be active after 3 minutes and i get to dense negs.

Is there some kind of table that shows how long it takes for a certain dilution before the highlight developer is exhausted??

That would be a nice thing to know.

 

[df cardwell]

Look up Sandy King's directions for using his developer.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have never tried this type of development ..
What real benifits are all you seeing? Are the benifits significant and easily visable on the enlarged print?

I am not doubting, just curious.

 

[climbabout]

SEMI STAND

Bob - if you recall, you printed a negative of mine of railroad car wheels at Steve Sherman's workshop last spring in Connecticut. That negative was processed in pyrocat hd - semi stand. Very dilute dev - 1.5/1/175 for 45 min - initial 3 min agitation, with 2 additional brief agiattions at each 1/3 interval. Very smooth highlights, pronounced edge contrast in the midtones.
Tim

 

[c6h6o3]

I have never tried this type of development ..
What real benifits are all you seeing? Are the benifits significant and easily visable on the enlarged print?

I am not doubting, just curious.

The main benefits are overall contrast control and enhanced local contrast in the midtones. A master of this technique is someone you know well...Steve Sherman. A few years back his two part article in View Camera magazine described how he discovered the various advantages it gives him in different situations. However, as far as I know he makes only contact prints.

One fine photographer who I know enlarges medium format negatives developed using the semi-stand technique is Scott Killian.

 

[df cardwell]

Bob: look at agitation as a control that lets you move the shadow density by development time, the mid tone by exposure, and the highlights by agitation.

On a good day, it lets you fit the scale of an image while maintaining local contrast. But it has limitations, like using a tire iron to open a wine bottle.

 

[Lee L]

Look up Sandy King's directions for using his developer.

Which is here: http://www.photoformulary.com/uploads/01-5080.pdf
and elsewhere in internet posts.

Here's Sandy's APUG post about Pyrocat HD with Acros and reduced agitation:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Lee

 

[Ronald Moravec]

One of my mentors did high end wedding work with plus x and D76 1:1. 60 sec on immersion and 45 at half way point.

He used tanks around 24" tall and agitation was a lift rod.

Naturally this worked for him. I have gotten specic details and never could duplicate his work. Same streaks you get.

I also tried Rodinal and tri x. The dense leader gets streaks, but the images were fine. I just can`t get myself to trust this as it is only a matter of time until I get a streak in the image area.

Leica two bath similar to D23 will get the same results with a lot less hassle. Also known a Stockler Formula

 

[sanking]

The advantages of semi-stand development, when you eliminate the development artifacts, are.

1. Maximum emulsion speed.
2. Enhanced adjacency effects, which can give greater apparent sharpness.
3. Greater mid-tone micro-contrast.

There are no directions that I know of for semi-stand development that give perfectly even development every time with every film. However, in general the following guidelines work well.

1. Use a very dilute solution of the developer. If using Pyrocat-HD I recommend 1.5:1:200.

2. Agitate the film vigorously for about 1.5 minutes at the beginning, and then about 10-15 seconds at the half-way point.

3. Orientation of the film may make a difference depending on film/developer combination. I have personally got the best results with the film in vertical orientation in tank or tube, but some people report good results with slosher type development. But by all means keep the film separated during development.

Keep in mind that semi-stand development does not necessarily give highlight compensation. Even with a very dilute solution of Pyrocat 1.5:1:200 the film will continue to build contrast if left in the developer for up to two hours and longer. So like other forms of development semi-stand needs to be carefully tested before hand if you are looking to get a certain CI in your negatives.

Sandy King

 

[Bob Carnie]

Yes indeed I remember that negative as being quite remarkable.

Bob - if you recall, you printed a negative of mine of railroad car wheels at Steve Sherman's workshop last spring in Connecticut. That negative was processed in pyrocat hd - semi stand. Very dilute dev - 1.5/1/175 for 45 min - initial 3 min agitation, with 2 additional brief agiattions at each 1/3 interval. Very smooth highlights, pronounced edge contrast in the midtones.
Tim

 

[Bob Carnie]

Steve's prints aredistinctly very sharp , almost like a very fine line on edges.
I saw this kind of edging on Sandy Kings carbons this summer.

The main benefits are overall contrast control and enhanced local contrast in the midtones. A master of this technique is someone you know well...Steve Sherman. A few years back his two part article in View Camera magazine described how he discovered the various advantages it gives him in different situations. However, as far as I know he makes only contact prints.

One fine photographer who I know enlarges medium format negatives developed using the semi-stand technique is Scott Killian.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I got a 8x10 studio camera from a client and I think I will try this method as Sandy suggests.
As Ronald points out, I would not be comfortable doing this with client work. but I am willing to waste a few sheets of my own to see the difference.

In a pinch I will use a tire iron to open a beer, not sure about the bottle of wine.

 

[c6h6o3]

Steve's prints aredistinctly very sharp , almost like a very fine line on edges.

for most of my photography I find the enhanced micro contrast unappealing. but when the subject matter is right for it...Whoa!

 

[df cardwell]

In a pinch I will use a tire iron to open a beer, not sure about the bottle of wine.

Just crack them open on the side of the DeVere like usual

.

 

[df cardwell]

The advantages of semi-stand development, when you eliminate the development artifacts, are.

1. Maximum emulsion speed.
2. Enhanced adjacency effects, which can give greater apparent sharpness.
3. Greater mid-tone micro-contrast.
...
Sandy King

For my own work, the acutance gain is much less important than the ability to fine tune the shape of the curve. Although, it is always a nice benefit.

With several developers (including, but not limited to, Xtol and Rodinal) once the traditional film testing is accomplished, one can move 3 points of the film curve relative to each other to effectively push and pull the response curve at the same time.

One can, for instance, raise the shadow densities while lowering the highlight densities, and keep the midtone constant. Simple testing will suggest ways this might be useful.

Most of my work is with 35mm, but I became accustomed long ago to the control possible with sheet film. I use one film, but choose one of three developers which give me a normal scale, a long scale, and a shorter scale negative. Through simple testing, I found the combination of development time and agitation to give me a constant Exposure Index equal to the box speed of the film. Each developer was close to my purpose, but needed more or less agitation to fit the scale perfectly.

Minimal agitation is a useful and safe technique that can, within its limits, be helpful to an intermediate or advanced photographer.

 

[Willie Jan]

I have never tried this type of development ..
What real benifits are all you seeing? Are the benifits significant and easily visable on the enlarged print?

I am not doubting, just curious.

I am having a scene with 11 stops that shows all information on a print.
The normal developed neg shows half, the rest is blown away...

 

[Willie Jan]

Be aware the the negative side of (semi)stand development can be that you get a dull soft picture without contrast.
But that is not my purpose.

I want to have a method that can save me when I am dealing with a high contrast scene for some reason.
Creating a softer neg is not that difficult.

But the bromide drag is a real problem.
Does anybody know what bromide drag exactly is?
Looks like some chemical residu flying around and causing the development to act different.

Sandy:
"Pyrocat-HD I recommend 1.5:1:200."
Will the higher 1.5 value of component A prevent the streaking?

 

[sanking]

I want to have a method that can save me when I am dealing with a high contrast scene for some reason.
Creating a softer neg is not that difficult.

But the bromide drag is a real problem.
Does anybody know what bromide drag exactly is?
Looks like some chemical residu flying around and causing the development to act different.

Sandy:
"Pyrocat-HD I recommend 1.5:1:200."
Will the higher 1.5 value of component A prevent the streaking?

If your major goal is to get a good printing negative in scenes of very high contrast I would recommend that you consider two-bath development. With this type of development the film absorbs the reducer in Solution A, then when you place the film in the alkaline accelerator (Solution B) development takes place, but is limited by the amount of reducer the film absorbed.

I used to use minimal agitaiton procedure for scenes of high contrast but switched to two-bath development a couple of years ago.

There are many two-bath formulas out there, or you can also use Pyrocat-HD. Just dilute both solution 1:10. Soak the film in a water bath for five minutes, then for five minutes in Solution A, then for five minutes in Solution B. Agitate about four times for ten seconds in each bath. And for some reason this type of development with Pyrocat-HD gives really high acutance, even more so than with stand development. I speculate that the reason is due to the fact that development is almost immediate when you place the negative in Solution A so you have total local exhaustion in areas of high density.

In stand and semi-stand development Bromide drag is caused by developer by-products that flow from areas of high density to areas of low density. Sometimes it looks like a comet tail. Best way to avoid it is to develop very vigorously for the first minute or so of development. Scenes that have large areas of heavy density (say a white cloud or church) adjacent to tonal areas of low density are most susceptible to bromide drag. I personally avoid developing negatives of scenes that have this kind of tonal arrangement.

Increasing the amount of Soluton A will not by itself eliminate bromide drag with stand and semi-stand development. In fact, I don't know anything that will assure perfectly even development in the kind of scenes I describe above.

Sandy King

 

[juan]

Interesting - I assume the Pyrocat A bath can be used repeatedly for at least some period of time, but what about the B?
juan