Selenium Toning

Vaughn · Jan 17, 2023

It's been awhile, but I selenium toned Portriga Rapid and Gallerie. The Gallerie I would tone to completion...it just picked up a little more punch to the blacks and took the paper to a neutral tone. The Portriga Rapid (warm tone paper) had to be carefully done (including the fix time) and it was timed to just get rid of the green and slightly move it into a lovely reddish brown. Too far and I'd get a purplish black...back in the days of heavy metals in the emulsions, I suppose.

The OP's subject does lend itself to a warmer tone. The reason for the two papers above was that some light shines better either warm or neutral to me. The light off the desert just seemed to get muddy on my warm-tone papers, and the redwoods loved the warmth it rarely sees up here.

Tim Stapp · Jan 17, 2023

Amazingly, to an admittedly stone color blind person: I see no significant difference (no green cast). I do like the shadows on the face better in the toned version.

Initially, the leave in the foreground appeared to be in better focus than the untoned version. But upon writing this while switching between the two, my aging eyes see that the foreground is the same in both.

albada · Jan 17, 2023

pentaxuser said:
A bit of trivia probably but when I look at the top shot for a few seconds and then switch to the bottom one it appears to have a very slight green look until my eyes adjust

Anyone else see this when switching?

Yes.
I thought it was my monitor.
The top looks untoned, and the bottom looks greenish.
And I don't get used to it. They always look normal/greenish.
Do you have a Dell monitor?

Mark

JPD · Jan 17, 2023

I blurred both to even out the light and dark and checked the colour cast with the pipette:

Cedavis2nd · Jan 17, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Just wondering which one is preferred by other viewers and perhaps why. Top image toned in Selenium 1+7 for 10 minutes; bottom image untoned. Thanks

EDIT: I realize that it could be dependent on subject matter.

Also the one seen in the gallery is toned but inadvertently scanned using gray scale, so it's not picked up.

View attachment 326944 View attachment 326945

Top looks great to me.

MattKing · Jan 17, 2023

For me, the top one looks very slightly magenta/blue, and the bottom one looks fairly neutral

c41 · Jan 17, 2023

FWIW I far prefer the toned print, I love the impact of Selenium on the shadows and your print shows this. Great job!
I always pull my prints before they start going purple. I'd love to try gold toning after selenium but haven't stumped up for the gold toner so far, one of these days.

koraks · Jan 18, 2023

JPD said:
I blurred both to even out the light and dark and checked the colour cast with the pipette:

There's some weird stuff going on if you sample specific points across the image. I did this because I thought I saw something odd, and sure enough it's there if you measure it out.

Measuring on the toned print, using the a and b coordinates of Lab:
The grass on the right side just above the shoe m have slight positive a & b values (e.g. 1.1, 2.3). So they tend towards red and yellow.
The grass at the same height on the left side of the image measures near-zero or slightly negative on a, and also a little less positive (but still above 0) on b (e.g. -0.2, 0.7). So this area is slightly yellow to slightly lime. The lit cheek measures roughly the same (-0.2, 1.3).
Interestingly the sunlit patches on the sweater tend slightly towards red (0.5,1.5).

I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing. The difference is subtle, of course, but it was clear enough for me to spot - I did the measurements above only to verify my hunch.

Overall I prefer the toned version; like @Andrew O'Neill I really don't care for the particular hue of green that untoned silver gel prints give.

Chuck_P · Jan 18, 2023

MattKing said:
For me, the top one looks very slightly magenta/blue, and the bottom one looks fairly neutral

This is also how I see it as well. Many have stated it appears "warmer" whereas I see it as a bit cooler with the untoned image being neutral.

Chuck_P · Jan 18, 2023

koraks said:
I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing

Does this help? The scanner I have is the Epson V700. The settings were: 24 bit color, 600 resolution, unsharp masking. Do weird things happen to cause issues when saving the file so that it can be uploaded? I'm fairly ignorant of proper scanning so I may be doing something not quite right, idk.

Anon Ymous · Jan 18, 2023

Chuck_P said:
This is also how I see it as well. Many have stated it appears "warmer" whereas I see it as a bit cooler with the untoned image being neutral.

I agree that the toned image looks cooler, but I can see a light green hue in the untoned one. I suppose a lot depends on the monitor where they're being viewed.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the pink - purple of the selenium toner. I'd cut dilution and/or time to simply remove the green tint.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 18, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Just wondering which one is preferred by other viewers and perhaps why. Top image toned in Selenium 1+7 for 10 minutes; bottom image untoned. Thanks

EDIT: I realize that it could be dependent on subject matter.

Also the one seen in the gallery is toned but inadvertently scanned using gray scale, so it's not picked up.

View attachment 326944 View attachment 326945

I prefer the top image because it seems to have more contrast.

relistan · Jan 18, 2023

I have looked at this on my 2015 MacBook Pro, my 2021 MacBook Pro for work, my iPhone, and my LG desktop monitor attached to the work MacBook Pro and they all look slightly different colors. Just goes to show that digital images are totally dependent on color calibration to display "true" images.

koraks · Jan 18, 2023

Chuck_P said:
I'm fairly ignorant of proper scanning so I may be doing something not quite right, idk.

I wouldn't beat myself up over it; it's a rather subtle effect anyway. Personally I wouldn't even bother spending much time on tracking it down
If I'd have to make a guess - especially if paper curls only slightly, it gets difficult to get perfectly even exposure when scanning a print. Perhaps it's something like that.

Chuck_P · Jan 18, 2023

koraks said:
If I'd have to make a guess - especially if paper curls only slightly, it gets difficult to get perfectly even exposure when scanning a print. Perhaps it's something like that

The v700 keeps the print perfectly flat, especially with the RC paper. It has an attachment for scanning documents/photos designed to keep them flat. I find the whole discussion and observations very interesting.

Sal Santamaura · Jan 18, 2023

relistan said:
I have looked at this on my 2015 MacBook Pro, my 2021 MacBook Pro for work, my iPhone, and my LG desktop monitor attached to the work MacBook Pro and they all look slightly different colors. Just goes to show that digital images are totally dependent on color calibration to display "true" images.

Yup. And viewing actual prints in different ambient lighting conditions results in just as much variation. Even darkroom output exhibits metamerism; it's not just inkjet. That's why I only evaluate my prints when the sun is shining and diffused by some white blinds/shutters. It's the standard I use for our relatively modern, "open plan" home with lots of windows. Those who live in environments where different illumination conditions predominate are advised to observe their prints under those instead.

GregY · Jan 18, 2023

Chuck, it's a lovely image. I wouldn't stress over it. Evaluating a screen version of a picture of a picture is such an approximation...

Chuck_P · Jan 18, 2023

GregY said:
Chuck, it's a lovely image. I wouldn't stress over it. Evaluating a screen version of a picture of a picture is such an approximation...

Thank you. I agree. Definitely not stressing over it as I've gotten many good comments and observations.....someone else made these other technical observations regarding colors due to scanning....of which I find others follow-up comments interesting.

pentaxuser · Jan 18, 2023

albada said:
Yes.
I thought it was my monitor.
The top looks untoned, and the bottom looks greenish.
And I don't get used to it. They always look normal/greenish.
Do you have a Dell monitor?

Mark

Mine says BENQ on the monitor

pentaxuser

JPD · Jan 18, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
FWIW, I'm not a fan of the pink - purple of the selenium toner. I'd cut dilution and/or time to simply remove the green tint.

But you are a fan of Pink Floyd?

What do you think of brown/sepia tones on portraits?

JPD · Jan 18, 2023

koraks said:
There's some weird stuff going on if you sample specific points across the image. I did this because I thought I saw something odd, and sure enough it's there if you measure it out.

Measuring on the toned print, using the a and b coordinates of Lab:
The grass on the right side just above the shoe m have slight positive a & b values (e.g. 1.1, 2.3). So they tend towards red and yellow.
The grass at the same height on the left side of the image measures near-zero or slightly negative on a, and also a little less positive (but still above 0) on b (e.g. -0.2, 0.7). So this area is slightly yellow to slightly lime. The lit cheek measures roughly the same (-0.2, 1.3).
Interestingly the sunlit patches on the sweater tend slightly towards red (0.5,1.5).

I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing. The difference is subtle, of course, but it was clear enough for me to spot - I did the measurements above only to verify my hunch.

It could have something to do with how much of the silver was converted to silver selenide in those lighter and darker spots. Also, a tiny amount of light from the scanner lights is reflected back from the scanner's glass plate.

koraks · Jan 18, 2023

JPD said:
It could have something to do with how much of the silver was converted to silver selenide in those lighter and darker spots

Yeah, but that's just a longer way of saying "uneven toning"
I agree with you on the possibility of a scanning artifact.

JPD · Jan 18, 2023

koraks said:
Yeah, but that's just a longer way of saying "uneven toning"

True, but that makes it sound like a flaw compared to "I prefer not to tone to completion", which sounds more "pro".

Anon Ymous · Jan 19, 2023

JPD said:
But you are a fan of Pink Floyd?

What do you think of brown/sepia tones on portraits?

Heh, good one...

I actually like brown/sepia and not just for portraits. Split sepia - selenium toning can also give some very nice results if done carefully. But it also depends on the paper. Not all papers respond the same and some won't turn purple in selenium toner. IMHO, warmtone papers are much more interesting in selenium than neutral ones. A chocolate brown tone is nice.

Chuck_P · Jan 19, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
IMHO, warmtone papers are much more interesting in selenium than neutral ones. A chocolate brown tone is nice.

Seems I have heard others say something like this and I'm thinking of getting some warmtone paper to try it...............could you expand on why you think it is more interesting?

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