Selenium Toning With Metal Trays

JackRosa · May 10, 2015

How bad/dangerous is it to use metal (stainless steel) trays when selenium toning negatives or prints? Toner instruction sheets state to not use metal trays. I never read the instructions!

I've been using metal trays with selenium toner for years! I also use a metal "jug" to bring toner up to temperature (usually 75F or higher) by filling this "jug" with toner and then placing the "jug" inside a bucket/container with hot water.

I hope I am not dying anytime soon.

Old-N-Feeble · May 10, 2015

Nah... you've got at least another couple good years left before you explode.

You should use always use nitrile gloves and ventilate your darkroom for any chemical process. As to whether selenium toner in SS trays will mess up your prints or are damaged by the same I can't answer that but most say don't do it. Others seem to have no problem with it. This might be due to particular SS formulation.

Gerald C Koch · May 10, 2015

As a trained chemist that has witnessed some spectacular mishaps, if you want to enjoy a long life as a photographer then start reading the directions.

pentaxuser · May 10, 2015

JackRosa said:
I hope I am not dying anytime soon.

Picture the scene in advance of your funeral. A few of your friends are gathered by your coffin as it is being lowered into the ground. One of them says: "Well he was warned by Gerald of the consequence of using SS trays and it got him in the end"

The rest shake their heads sadly and start murmuring. Suddenly the know-it-all kid from next door jumps up and says : "Well what did you expect, he was 110!

Maybe someone will tells us what the dire consequences are when using SS trays. In the meantime keep smiling and drink one glass less of Jack Daniels than your doctor just to be on the safe side

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · May 10, 2015

The warning about metal trays concerns the decomposition of the selenium toner and not the health of the user.

My previous post was directed toward reading all directions. It can effect not only one's health but also their money. A while back a poster who had not read the HC-110 directions carefully and had diluted the entire bottle to make the 1+3 stock solution. Of course this stock has a limited useful life unlike the concentrate. Reading the directions could have saved him some money.

Edward Weston never used gloves or tongs in his darkroom and was famous for his black fingernails. In later life he began to suffer a neurological condition similar to Parkinson's disease. Some neurologists have attributed this to the absorption of certain developing agents.

MattKing · May 10, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
The warning about metal trays concerns the decomposition of the selenium toner and not the health of the user.

And possibly, the condition of what may be fairly expensive trays.

smieglitz · May 10, 2015

I've been exclusively using stainless trays for KRST (1+3, 1+6, 1+20) for over 25 years and have not noticed any decomposition of the toner that I could pin on the trays. Going straight from the fixer probably lowers the solution pH (though I've never measured the pH personally) and causes what I assume to be silver selenite to precipitate, but otherwise, no problems. I would further assume using plastic trays would cause some loss of the toner to staining of the trays and adversely affect its action compared to stainless steel. For all other toners I use plastic trays.

Now I'm going to have to read the damn label. Not that I'll change anytime soon.

Patrick Robert James · May 10, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
The warning about metal trays concerns the decomposition of the selenium toner and not the health of the user.

My previous post was directed toward reading all directions. It can effect not only one's health but also their money. A while back a poster who had not read the HC-110 directions carefully and had diluted the entire bottle to make the 1+3 stock solution. Of course this stock has a limited useful life unlike the concentrate. Reading the directions could have saved him some money.

Edward Weston never used gloves or tongs in his darkroom and was famous for his black fingernails. In later life he began to suffer a neurological condition similar to Parkinson's disease. Some neurologists have attributed this to the absorption of certain developing agents.

Gerald, I have never understood why anyone would ever put their hands in any chemistry ever. I never have. Tongs or gloves for me. It is bad enough I have to breath the fumes. I remember when I first used PMK I splashed a drop or two on my arm. Within a short amount of time I had a burning rubber taste in my mouth. Freaked me out!

Every time I see someone put their hands in chemistry I wince. Imagine if Weston felt the same way. He might have lived a few more decades and made some incredible photographs that we would appreciate today. Sad.

pentaxuser · May 11, 2015

So what is the decomposition that is the result of using stainless steel? Kodak does say not to use metal trays or more specifically not to use chipped enamel covered metal trays but seem to give no reasons.

To sum up: several people seem to have used SS trays for selenium for many years and have yet to notice any effect on the selenium, prints or their health.

No-one here seem to be asserting a health hazard per se with SS trays

Kodak mentions not using chipped enamel-covered metal ( unspecified) trays for selenium but seems to give no reasons. Others elsewhere on a google search repeat that warning but may simply be re-stating the Kodak position which does not seem to specify why there is a problem with metal nor qualifies if that is any and all metal or if SS is the exception.

pentaxuser

P.S. Is Jack Rosa still alive?

JackRosa · May 11, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Picture the scene in advance of your funeral. A few of your friends are gathered by your coffin as it is being lowered into the ground. One of them says: "Well he was warned by Gerald of the consequence of using SS trays and it got him in the end"

The rest shake their heads sadly and start murmuring. Suddenly the know-it-all kid from next door jumps up and says : "Well what did you expect, he was 110!

Maybe someone will tells us what the dire consequences are when using SS trays. In the meantime keep smiling and drink one glass less of Jack Daniels than your doctor just to be on the safe side

pentaxuser

JackRosa · May 11, 2015

Still alive

Still alive (after using SS trays + Selenium toner) for many years . . . . .
. . . . and still wondering what the issue is with using SS trays and Selenium toner .......

JackRosa · May 11, 2015

MattKing said:
And possibly, the condition of what may be fairly expensive trays.

Have not noticed any "decomposition" of the SS trays .....

smieglitz · May 11, 2015

OK, so I read the data sheet on the Kodak toners and it does not single out KRST when it speaks of avoiding the use of metal trays. Rather, it states:

"Do not use metal trays or tanks to hold your toning solutions. Use only unchipped enamel, hard-rubber, or plastic trays."

I believe the warning is more applicable to the sulphide toners or anything that contains a ferricyanide bleach. I have some foggy recollection of a warning to not use brushes with metal ferrules with the latter types of bleaches/toners and always assumed metal trays would be a no-no with them. Again, I have never noticed any problem with KRST in stainless trays. It is a different beast than the sulphiding solutions.

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
As a trained chemist that has witnessed some spectacular mishaps, if you want to enjoy a long life as a photographer then start reading the directions.

RTFM is always good advice.

JackRosa · May 11, 2015

Got it /Thanks

smieglitz said:
OK, so I read the data sheet on the Kodak toners and it does not single out KRST when it speaks of avoiding the use of metal trays. Rather, it states:

"Do not use metal trays or tanks to hold your toning solutions. Use only unchipped enamel, hard-rubber, or plastic trays."

I believe the warning is more applicable to the sulphide toners or anything that contains a ferricyanide bleach. I have some foggy recollection of a warning to not use brushes with metal ferrules with the latter types of bleaches/toners and always assumed metal trays would be a no-no with them. Again, I have never noticed any problem with KRST in stainless trays. It is a different beast than the sulphiding solutions.

Got it and thanks for researching . . .

It seems using metal trays with KRST will not end my life before my time.

Selenium Toning With Metal Trays

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