Selenium Toning - Overall Stain Due to Fix Acidity

[piu58]

I washed my prints before selen toning 3 times à 5 minutes stationary (in a delopment tray). This is much shorter than textbooks describe.

My idea behnd this: Remaining argentum thiosulfate would be toned and would be lead to fog. I did not see the tinies bit of fog using this procedure, so I assume washing is/was enough.

I thing the staining has an other reason.

 

[Bill Burk]

Hi piu58,

You might have had 3 full changes of water. That might have been enough. I may not have had that because I had the water running low.

Are you also using an acid fix?

p.s. This is a faint, fairly off-white stain that can easily be seen by comparing print to print in bright light. Not easy to see in an individual print.

 

[piu58]

>Are you also using an acid fix?

Yes.

I have the prints face down in my tray, because the thiosulfate tends to sink down.

 

[amellice]

In a recent thread I discussed my procedure for printing and toning and it's a simple procedure.

I mentioned that "when I rush" or "when I use old chemicals" I occasionally get stains. But most of the time I have no problem.

Last night, I learned the procedure that leads to stains: When I leave out the wash between Fixer and Toner.

I can fit four trays in my sink, I wash prints by putting a small table under the holding tray and attaching a Kodak Tank and Tray Siphon to it.

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This process leads to stain-free prints...
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Print session:
1. Develop in Dektol 1:2 for 3 minutes.
2. Stop in Kodak Indicator Stop Bath 4cc in 32 ounces water for 30 seconds.
3. Fix in Kodak Rapid Fixer 1:7 (4 ounces + 28 ounces water) for 6 minutes each print fixed individually with continuous attention.
4. Holding tray of water during print session.
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After print session:
Empty and rinse trays 1-3, raise tray 4 and attach siphon to running water.
5. Wash prints 2 hours.
6. Allow prints to soak overnight.
7. Turn the wash water back on in the morning.
---
Toning session:
8. Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1:32
9. Wash prints 2 hours.

---
---
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This process leads to an unpleasant brown cream colored stain over the entire print...
---
Print session:
1. Develop in Dektol 1:2 for 3 minutes.
2. Stop in Kodak Indicator Stop Bath 4cc in 32 ounces water for 30 seconds.
3. Fix in Kodak Rapid Fixer 1:7 (4 ounces + 28 ounces water) for 6 minutes each print fixed individually with continuous attention.
4. Holding tray of water during print session.
---
After print session:
Empty and rinse trays 1-3, raise tray 4 and attach siphon to running water.
But do not wash prints fully, instead proceed quickly to Toning session because you want to be able to dry the prints in the morning...
---
Toning session:
5. Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1:32
6. Toss prints in the trash.
---

Now California is in a drought, so I am inclined to "do my part" and modify my working procedure with the addition of Hypo Clearing Agent. I think I would have been better off if I had used that... But my standard procedure relied upon the complete wash between fix and toning.

Did you try to do the toning and washing in the same session as a test? If that eliminates the stain the you could try to give the print a rinse after fixing. Also how many prints you have in the water tray together?

 

[Bill Burk]

Did you try to do the toning and washing in the same session as a test? If that eliminates the stain the you could try to give the print a rinse after fixing. Also how many prints you have in the water tray together?

I am most successful when I tone in the morning. Lately I have been pressing myself to tone in the evening of a printing session. Normally I produce 3-4 prints in a session, however in the recent runs I have had more like 6-7.

So I think my problem is/was too many prints in the water together (4 prints may be the max for a tray/siphon combination), not enough changes of water (3 changes/15 minutes may be minimum, thanks piu58).

 

[amellice]

I am most successful when I tone in the morning. Lately I have been pressing myself to tone in the evening of a printing session. Normally I produce 3-4 prints in a session, however in the recent runs I have had more like 6-7.

So I think my problem is/was too many prints in the water together (4 prints may be the max for a tray/siphon combination), not enough changes of water (3 changes/15 minutes may be minimum, thanks piu58).

I guess so, you have to check how deep is your tray and if your 6/7 prints are not touching each other (not likely). I usually leave the test prints and discards in an 12x16 tray filled with cool water, one day I left them for 2 days in the tray and I found that brown spots you are talking about on the prints and the water color is changed.

If you don't want to tone at the same session, I think you have to wash your prints

 

[piu58]

I have always only one print in the tray. With enough trays the first one can have it's washing time while the next one is elaborated. The the second comes in the first tray, the first in the second tray and so on. It is not a problem to produce 3 or 4 prints during a session.

 

[Bill Burk]

Thanks amellice and piu58,

The unwashed test strips in tray of water get brown spots after a couple days, but that's different this is an overall or diffused area barely detectable off-white appearance.

I think the tray siphon with 4 prints shuffled occasionally and washed 2 hours is the key for me. If I must rush 20 minutes wash I will ensure 3 changes of water and shuffled.

 

[amellice]

I reread your first post again, you fix for 6 minutes, I'm not sure what's the recommendation for Kodak rapid fixed but Ilford rapid fixer which I use recommends 2 minutes for FB, if you have 2 baths fixers then 1 min each. Longer time in the fixer doesn't do good to the print it will make it harder to wash and may bleach some hightlights from the print

 

[MattKing]

Stack two wash trays, with the overflow from the top tray/siphon flowing into the bottom one.

Prints go into the bottom tray, and then are moved up, one by one, to the top tray.

The time in the bottom tray does most of the washing. Ten minutes in the top tray will most likely finish it off.