Second Developing Attempt: Still Purple

polyglot · Jan 4, 2014

a) the purple really doesn't matter for any purpose whatsoever, unless you're under-fixing (really bad) or under-washing (bad)
b) the Ilford wash method (which they advocate as a water-saving measure, it's the bare minimum) is borderline and while it's OK for Ilford films, some Kodak films take a bit more washing.
c) you don't need washaid (hypo clear) for film, because the emulsion is so thin. It's for getting fixer out of fibre paper, which soaks the stuff up like a sponge - it's literally 100x harder to get fixer out of FB paper than film
d) make sure you use rapid fixer, and give the film a good 5 minutes (8 minutes for T-grain films: Tmax, Acros, Delta) in there with plenty of agitation

Try washing for about 10 minutes, with at least 5-6 changes of water and agitation for at least half that time. The purple will disappear entirely. A 10 minute wash with 6 changes of water and constant agitation will give perfectly clear negatives. A Jobo or any other motorised roller base is hugely helpful for fixing and washing to completion

David Allen · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse said:
I just finished up with my second developing of my own film. Still Kodak Tri-X in D-76, 1:1. This time I did a pre-soak stage, soaking the film in 20 C water for 3 mins. No agitation here, just soaking.

After developing, stopping, fixing, and then washing, I find that my film still has the purple color to it. The negatives look great otherwise.

I know that this is not a serious flaw, yet I still want to improve and get my negatives as clear as when they come back from a pro lab.

What else can I do to clear away this purple color? Should I agitate during the pre-soak? Should I do more than one pre-soak?

Finally, I'm told that these purple negatives will print well, but will they scan well too? I need to send my negatives out for scanning and I dont know if this purple color will confuse them.

Thanks!

Hi RM,

The key to successfully employing the Ilford film washing sequence is getting residual chemical out of your tank and the key to getting rid of all traces of the purple dye is to use a two-stage fixing sequence with fresh fixer and an intermediate wash of the film.

The following sequence is what I use and also teach during workshops. Neither I nor any of the people that I have taught have any problems with residual purple dye. Just for clarification, I have always used Paterson plastic developing tanks.

Pour out the water stop-bath
Pour in a rapid fixer (I use Ilford Hypam or equivalent at 1 + 4) and fix with constant agitation for 2 minutes.
Remove film from tank (keep on the spirals) and place in large jug of water and agitate constantly (changing the water every two minutes) until the majority of the pink dye has been removed (usually, with constant agitation, this takes two changes of water)
Replace the film in tank with fixer and fix for a further 2 minutes with agitation every 30 seconds.
Remove film and place in a large jug with plain water.
Empty fix out of tank.
Wash all parts of the tank thoroughly and then fill with plain water.
Place film back into the tank, secure lid and invert 10 times.
Empty water and refill with plain water and invert 10 times.
Empty water and refill with plain water and invert 20 times.
Empty water and refill with plain water and invert 20 times.
Remove film from tank and place in a large jug filled with distilled water and a few drops of wetting agent.
Leave film for a minimum of 3 minutes.
Remove film from reel and (with a bucket underneath) pour the contents of the jug down both sides of the film.
Hang to dry with no squegeeing or fingers on film.

By the way, I also use a two minute presoak irrespective of the developer in question.

Hope this helps and let us know if you achieve nice clean negatives without any trace of the pink dye.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

RattyMouse · Jan 4, 2014

polyglot said:
a) the purple really doesn't matter for any purpose whatsoever, unless you're under-fixing (really bad) or under-washing (bad)
b) the Ilford wash method (which they advocate as a water-saving measure, it's the bare minimum) is borderline and while it's OK for Ilford films, some Kodak films take a bit more washing.
c) you don't need washaid (hypo clear) for film, because the emulsion is so thin. It's for getting fixer out of fibre paper, which soaks the stuff up like a sponge - it's literally 100x harder to get fixer out of FB paper than film
d) make sure you use rapid fixer, and give the film a good 5 minutes (8 minutes for T-grain films: Tmax, Acros, Delta) in there with plenty of agitation

Try washing for about 10 minutes, with at least 5-6 changes of water and agitation for at least half that time. The purple will disappear entirely. A 10 minute wash with 6 changes of water and constant agitation will give perfectly clear negatives. A Jobo or any other motorised roller base is hugely helpful for fixing and washing to completion

Hi Polyglot. I am following YOUR instructions that are in your sig file!

Do you know if Kodafix 200 is a rapid fix? I have a fresh dilution with only 2 rolls of film through it. I am fixing for 1 minute longer than your directions call for. I would guess that this is OK, except I am not doing this with temperature controlled fixer. I dont know what temp it was, but my house is rather cool. It could be lower than 18 C, maybe 16 C. It is stored in an unheated bathroom.

I am going to wash the hell out of my film tomorrow, just to observe the difference.

RattyMouse · Jan 4, 2014

David,

Thank you for your procedure. I currently have very limited space and even more limited containers. But once I am more set up, I will keep your suggestions in mind.

Thanks again!

Christopher Walrath · Jan 4, 2014

RM, it is always best to err on the side of over.fixing. but not by too much. An extra minute will not hurt. I have always rinse 5-10-20 and never had a problem. Of course, my rinse always approaches 20C so I have never rinsed with much colder water. Rather than washing more or adding steps, change only one thing at a time. That way if it works you know of a certainty what fixed the problem. My vote, control your temp as best you can throughout.

RPC · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse, the color cast will certainly take longer to go away at the temperatures you process at. You can either fix and wash longer or warm the fixer and wash water several degrees. This will also ensure you have complete fixation and washing.

BradS · Jan 4, 2014

Tom1956 said:
They don't use D-76 in those big machines. They use harsher chemistry. Frankly I can't explain the lingering purple of home-developed film, but I've almost always had it. The only thing I've learned from my years is that the pre-wash water always pours out dark, and developer does not, if I don't pre-wash. So that means either the development "sets the stain", or there's some kind of chemical reaction going on. But the fact remains that the pre-wash water pour out nasty and dark, an the film comes out less purple. After that, don't worry about it. I think it fades a little in time. Always more purple when fresh out of the tank, wet.
You don't have a problem, you did just fine.

Yes, there is some kinda of chemical reaction going on is correct. The Sodium Sulfite in the developer (and in the Hypo clearing agent too) bleaches out the color.

As Tom and others have said, don't worry about the purple tint. It is normal. The purple can be washed out with more time in the final wash and washing in warmer water. Using a hypo clearing agent step will also help.

I use tap water at about 30 degrees C during the wash phase. You can do this with modern high quality films from Kodak, Ilford and Fuji. I would not do it however with Efke.

limsoonchung · Jan 4, 2014

I've found that using the two-bath method for fixing film gets rid of the purple cast pretty much completely without having to wash for extended times. I don't use hypo in the wash either. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer.

BradS · Jan 4, 2014

try this for fun:

1) mix up some hypo clearing agent or, simply dissolve 100g of sodium sulfite in a liter of water.
2) pour some red wine in a glass
3) slowly add hypo clearing agent or sodium sulfite solution to the glass of wine
4) see what happens to the color.

Terry Christian · Jan 4, 2014

limsoonchung said:
I've found that using the two-bath method for fixing film gets rid of the purple cast pretty much completely without having to wash for extended times. I don't use hypo in the wash either. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer.

I may be nitpicking the language here, but I feel it's important for the children: HYPO = FIXER. HYPO-CLEAR is wash-aid, a substance that helps to CLEAR the HYPO from the film (or, when printing, paper).

PLEASE do not call hypo-clear "hypo"! Hypo is another name for fixer -- sodium thiosulfate, which was previously called hyposulfite of soda.

So, you pre-wash (optional); develop; stop; fix (one-bath or two-bath, your choice); hypo-clear/wash-aid (optional); wash; final rinse with Kodak Photo-Flo/Edwal LFN/other rinse aid.

Again, I apologize if I come across too harsh, but I don't want any newcomers to ruin their film by confusing two completely different chemicals.

limsoonchung · Jan 4, 2014

Point well taken. No need to apologise. Always better to be precise.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse said:
I just finished up with my second developing of my own film. Still Kodak Tri-X in D-76, 1:1. This time I did a pre-soak stage, soaking the film in 20 C water for 3 mins. No agitation here, just soaking.

After developing, stopping, fixing, and then washing, I find that my film still has the purple color to it. The negatives look great otherwise.

I know that this is not a serious flaw, yet I still want to improve and get my negatives as clear as when they come back from a pro lab.

What else can I do to clear away this purple color? Should I agitate during the pre-soak? Should I do more than one pre-soak?

Finally, I'm told that these purple negatives will print well, but will they scan well too? I need to send my negatives out for scanning and I dont know if this purple color will confuse them.

Thanks!

first oall, consider this a cosmetic flaw. it's what's left of the antihalation layer of the film and has no negative effect on picture quality. If it still bothers you,the good news is it's water soluable.I use the two-bath fixing method followed by 2min wash aid and a 10 min wash and get no purple tint ever.in oother words, a good fix and a longer wet time after fix will get rid of it. I also heard that exposure to near UV will eliminate the purple. so a couple of days in a north -ponting window should do the trick, but I haven't tested that.

damonff · Jan 4, 2014

This works for me: I fix with TF-4 fixer and then I rinse for about 5-7 minutes in 90-100 degree F water. Clear as day - no purple.

pentaxuser · Jan 4, 2014

I haven't ever developed Tri-X but have developed TMax 400 and I needed about 4 sequences of pre-wash with occasional agitation and dump to rid the film of almost all the dye but looking at the posts for some commonality I'd hazard a guess that D Allen's process of double fix and overall a similar amount of washing as my pre-soak and dumps would be even better.

Incidentally while I do not wish to dissuade you from continuing with trad B&W film, I'd suggest that if you are stuck with scanning for the foreseeable future you might want to consider XP2+. It is said to be easier to scan and yet retains excellent darkroom printing qualities.

Of course it requires the C41 process which has the added potential difficulty of retaining a higher temperature of 37.8 if you want to develop it yourself but does have the advantage of being able to be processed in any mini-lab, not many of which are geared up to trad B&W film development.

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Jan 4, 2014

I process T-Max 400 very frequently and wash for 10 minutes in running water with no purple tinting, assuming fresh fixer. Do not overuse the fix. Mixing fresh fixer every session isn't such a bad idea. Suggest 4 to 6 films per litre of rapid fix at 1+4 dilution (5 minutes continuous agitation, 20ºC).

Tom

polyglot · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Hi Polyglot. I am following YOUR instructions that are in your sig file!

Do you know if Kodafix 200 is a rapid fix? I have a fresh dilution with only 2 rolls of film through it. I am fixing for 1 minute longer than your directions call for. I would guess that this is OK, except I am not doing this with temperature controlled fixer. I dont know what temp it was, but my house is rather cool. It could be lower than 18 C, maybe 16 C. It is stored in an unheated bathroom.

I am going to wash the hell out of my film tomorrow, just to observe the difference.

I've never used Kodafix 200 (my local shop has Ilford so I get the 5L bottles of Hypam) but a bit of googling tells me that:
- Kodafix is (maybe) a rapid fixer: good
- Kodafix is hardening: bad

Use of hardening fixers makes washing times much, much longer because it makes the gelatin contract to a dense, hard state which is less permeable. It's possible that your film colouration is due to the presence of hardener slowing the wash process, in which case you're probably under-washing. A hypo clearing agent will help if you used a hardening fixer but should otherwise not be necessary for film.

Your (there was a url link here which no longer exists) indicated (oops, just read to the end of that thread). Also if Kodafix is NOT a rapid fixer as according to some posts in your thread, then you will need much much longer fixing times too. Like 10+ minutes.

David Allen · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse said:
David,

Thank you for your procedure. I currently have very limited space and even more limited containers. But once I am more set up, I will keep your suggestions in mind.

Thanks again!

Hi Rm,

the sequence I suggested can be accomplished with a bucket of water at 20% and a couple of jugs.

Dont make your life complicated.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

removed account4 · Jan 4, 2014

hi rm

you might do a parlor trick ...

take a clip from the leader of the film you just processed ..
the part that was in the camera securing the film to the take up spool
( the paer that was cut off / exposed to light and not processed )
with the lights oh ... stick it in your fixer and see how long it takes to change the greyish black
clip to clear base .. that should have been half your total fix time.
split it between 2 baths or all in the same bath ...
just male sure when you process your film you
do this fun trick to assure yourself you are fixing your film enough ..
the number will change as you fix more film
and fill your fix with silver ...

have fun
john

RattyMouse · Jan 4, 2014

Well, my THIRD attempt looked the best yet. Very nice juicy looking negatives with even less purple color. I did a lot of washing this time. I did 3 fills of the tank with 20 inversions, then filled the tank with 30 C water and let it sit for 10 mins or so and then another 3 fills of the tank with 20 inversions.

I'm getting there. But I have another question so time for a new thread.....

RattyMouse · Jan 4, 2014

polyglot said:
I've never used Kodafix 200 (my local shop has Ilford so I get the 5L bottles of Hypam) but a bit of googling tells me that:
- Kodafix is (maybe) a rapid fixer: good
- Kodafix is hardening: bad

Use of hardening fixers makes washing times much, much longer because it makes the gelatin contract to a dense, hard state which is less permeable. It's possible that your film colouration is due to the presence of hardener slowing the wash process, in which case you're probably under-washing. A hypo clearing agent will help if you used a hardening fixer but should otherwise not be necessary for film.

Your (there was a url link here which no longer exists) indicated (oops, just read to the end of that thread). Also if Kodafix is NOT a rapid fixer as according to some posts in your thread, then you will need much much longer fixing times too. Like 10+ minutes.

I'm gonna ditch this fixer and replace it with something that isnt hardening. My bad luck to grab a bottle of this Kodafix 200. Seems no one uses this much ere.

Seems VERY odd that Kodak is so vague about this chemical. Not even a data sheet for it.

MattKing · Jan 4, 2014

RattyMouse said:
I'm gonna ditch this fixer and replace it with something that isnt hardening. My bad luck to grab a bottle of this Kodafix 200. Seems no one uses this much ere.

Seems VERY odd that Kodak is so vague about this chemical. Not even a data sheet for it.

The old Kodafix is described in my 1970 (Edit: and 1977) Kodak Darkroom Dataguide in such a way (same suggested times) as to cause me to believe that it was indeed a rapid fixer - which surprises me.

I'd suggest you just use it up. The hardener will have a relatively small effect on the purple tint, but otherwise isn't very important for Tri-X.

Just use a proper clip test and two bath fixing to ensure proper fixing - it is more than capable enough for that.

Rudeofus · Jan 5, 2014

RattyMouse said:
I'm gonna ditch this fixer and replace it with something that isnt hardening. My bad luck to grab a bottle of this Kodafix 200. Seems no one uses this much ere.

Seems VERY odd that Kodak is so vague about this chemical. Not even a data sheet for it.

This page indicates, that Kodafix 200 solution runs under the product ID 146-4080. As it just so happens, there is an MSDS for this product here. Looking through this MSDS tells immediately, that Kodafix 200 is an acid hardening rapid fixer based on Ammonium Thiosulfate.

Since the product page specifically recommends this fixer for TMAX and Tri-X, there is no reason why this fixer shouldn't be used.

polyglot · Jan 5, 2014

Yeah, there's no need to get rid of the fixer. Just the fixing times and washing times will be longer than with some other fixers.

mwdake · Jan 5, 2014

then filled the tank with 30 C water

Be careful, as others have already pointed out you should try to keep all chemicals and washes within a few degrees of each other.

RattyMouse · Jan 5, 2014

mwdake said:
Be careful, as others have already pointed out you should try to keep all chemicals and washes within a few degrees of each other.

I dont see why here. By this time my fixing is over and I have washed the film 3 successive times with water out of the tap. There's no way my tap water is temperature controlled. I use warm water to soak the film as I'm told that hardening fixers slow down the washing. A bit of heat, not much, is supposed to help. What potential harm is possible with 30 C water at this stage? As far as I understand, at the washing stage all chemical reactions are over.

Second Developing Attempt: Still Purple

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency