Scratched Film?

maponline · Nov 20, 2014

Hi all,

I'm getting my film developed at the lab and usually ask them for a low-res scan.

What I find intriguing is that their scan does not seem to have scratches but when I scan the negative at home (Plustek 8200i), I get a thin white, continuous horizontal line as if the negative had been scratched (see the eyes of the lady in the example). I've encountered the problem with film used in two different cameras, so I would expect that the camera is not the culprit. Also, because the lab scan is low-res, I don't expect that they would do retouching for that kind of problem. What do you think could cause the scratch? And how to avoid it?

Many thanks for your help with this!

Truzi · Nov 21, 2014

It could be an artifact of the scanner. An optical enlargement can reveal if it is on the negative or just from the scanning process.

If you don't have an enlarger, you can rotate the negative 90 degrees and scan again. If the "scratch" goes in the other direction, it is the scanner.

Jim Noel · Nov 21, 2014

There may be a speck of dust the size of the scratch in the path of the scanning light.

Alex Muir · Nov 21, 2014

I would expect scratches on a negative to look black in the print/scan.
Alex

Xmas · Nov 21, 2014

use a loope on the negatives

darkosaric · Nov 21, 2014

Xmas said:
use a loope on the negatives

This is very important - in that way you can know for sure it is scratch on the negative, and not error from scanner. When you are sure it is scratch on the negative - then you can try to change the camera, change the film, and on the end develop yourself (or change lab). Just be sure to change one variable at the time.

frobozz · Nov 21, 2014

Let's not overlook the obvious: maybe the lab scratched it after they scanned it. (Or you did.) By any chance are the negatives put into plastic sleeves that load in on the skinny dimension, i.e. the negatives slide into the sleeves across the length of 5 or 6 frames? I've never liked those.

Duncan

maponline · Nov 24, 2014

Thanks all for the suggestions. I wanted to see if there was anything obvious before I start looking at parameters in a methodical way as darkosarik proposes.

I was thinking if the lab batch-scans the negs from an uncut roll and then cuts the roll, then this may be the stage when something screws up... Unless I do the screwing up. I tried rotating the negative holder 180 degrees (cannot do 90) in my scanner with one of the negatives and I still had the issue on the same side of the image so it does not seem to come from inside the scanner.

frobozz said:
Let's not overlook the obvious: maybe the lab scratched it after they scanned it. (Or you did.) By any chance are the negatives put into plastic sleeves that load in on the skinny dimension, i.e. the negatives slide into the sleeves across the length of 5 or 6 frames? I've never liked those.

Duncan

Duncan, thanks for this, I didn't know there was another option to store negatives (apart from rolled up, which poses problems with my scanner). How do the sleeves affect the film? (as it happens I just ordered 50 binder sleeve pages last week...) What would be a better option in your opinion?

Many thanks,
Michael

darkosaric · Nov 24, 2014

I avoid plastic sleeves - using Pergamin paper sleeves only. Better archiving than plastic sleeves and more gentle to the negatives. Plastic sleeves are good only if you like to look the negatives without putting them out of sleeve.

frobozz · Nov 24, 2014

Call me old school but I use glassine negative sleeves. Even if you put a whole cut roll into one sleeve to save money, they're unlikely to get scratched if you put them in and out all together in a stack. If you're really paranoid, put one strip per sleeve. The downside, yes, is that you can't see the negs very well through the sleeve and you certainly can't do a proof sheet through the sleeve. But they don't get scratched!

Duncan

darkosaric · Nov 24, 2014

frobozz said:
glassine negative sleeves.

Is this glassine sleeve?

If yes - this is what I use as well. I was thinking this is called Pergamin paper sleeve, is it the same thing?

maponline · Nov 24, 2014

Thanks Duncan and Darko -- I think I got the plastic ones and will see if I can get the glassine ones instead. Many thanks for the info.

As a side note I'll soon start developing film on my own so then I'll be able to see if I still have the issue and at which stage it occurs.

frobozz · Nov 24, 2014

darkosaric said:
Is this glassine sleeve?

View attachment 98560

If yes - this is what I use as well. I was thinking this is called Pergamin paper sleeve, is it the same thing?

Yes, I believe that Pergamin and glassine are the same thing. I have never seen them like that, very clever! The ones I use are individual envelopes that are slightly wider than 35mm film, and a little over 6 frames long, with the opening on the small dimension. It is hard to find pictures of those via Google, but glassine is what stamp collectors use, and there are plenty of pictures of other sizes of glassine envelopes in the web. For instance:

Duncan

maponline · Nov 24, 2014

Ok, great! Again, did anyone specify what was actually wrong with plastic sleeves? (as opposed to glassine). Thanks!

MattKing · Nov 25, 2014

I've been using the plastic sleeves for many years, with good results.

Cybertrash · Nov 25, 2014

I use archival transparent sleeves and never seem to have problems with scratching the negatives, and the convenience of making contact sheets through the sleeves directly onto 9½x12 inch paper is great.

darkosaric · Nov 25, 2014

maponline said:
Ok, great! Again, did anyone specify what was actually wrong with plastic sleeves? (as opposed to glassine). Thanks!

According to fotoimpex and some other shops, and many older photographers told me:

Plastic sleeves are less gentle to the negatives (easier to scratch while loading negative inside) and have less archiving characteristics - can retain moisture, while glassine are "breathing", so to say.

maponline · Nov 25, 2014

Great, thanks a lot for these useful details. I'll go for glassine indeed.

AgX · Nov 25, 2014

frobozz said:
I have never seen them like that, very clever! The ones I use are individual envelopes...

Those binder-fitting ones were the typical stuff offered in the 70s or later over here.

chrisaisenbrey · Nov 25, 2014

To get back to the original problem: Whether the scratches are visible or not in a scanned image depend a lot on the lightning system. Some scanners have a very harsh lightning system and show all micro scratches. Perhaps the (micro) scratches were also present in the first scan by the lab, but not visible.
Perhaps you will see the scratches with a condenser enlarger, but not with a diffuser enlarger. Perhaps you will see them only with a condenser enlarger with a real point light source.

frobozz · Nov 26, 2014

maponline said:
Ok, great! Again, did anyone specify what was actually wrong with plastic sleeves? (as opposed to glassine). Thanks!

What I see as the problem with plastic sleeves is that they get a static charge and attract dust...and the two sides attract each other. So you have this clamped-shut dust-filled pocket that you are trying to slide your negatives into. While glassines can be held wide open, so the negatives slide in while barely touching any surface, and those surfaces are not attracting dust.

Duncan

maponline · Nov 27, 2014

chrisaisenbrey said:
To get back to the original problem: Whether the scratches are visible or not in a scanned image depend a lot on the lightning system. Some scanners have a very harsh lightning system and show all micro scratches. Perhaps the (micro) scratches were also present in the first scan by the lab, but not visible.
Perhaps you will see the scratches with a condenser enlarger, but not with a diffuser enlarger. Perhaps you will see them only with a condenser enlarger with a real point light source.

Thanks Chris --- it's different scanners indeed. I am comforted so far by the fact that film shot with two different cameras had the issue, which means it's hopefully not the camera but more likely lab's process (or, but let's hope not, my scanner screwing the negatives). I will now process my film at home so hopefully the issue will disappear.

maponline · Nov 27, 2014

frobozz said:
What I see as the problem with plastic sleeves is that they get a static charge and attract dust...and the two sides attract each other. So you have this clamped-shut dust-filled pocket that you are trying to slide your negatives into. While glassines can be held wide open, so the negatives slide in while barely touching any surface, and those surfaces are not attracting dust.

Duncan

Thanks Duncan, I didn't realize the difference was so great.

Scratched Film?

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