Schneider Super angulon 90mm F8 retainer ring

[sebastianz]

Hello Guys, I have a question, and the learning curve for large format lenses is too steep for me.

I bought this lens for usd$120; I plan to make a DIY 6x17 camera. Well, the problem is that the lens didn't have a retaining ring.

Looking at the image, I understand that the diameter for the copal, in my case, is M25 (25mm), or do I measure in the wrong diameter?

To capitalize:

Do I need an M25 retaining ring?

Like this one?

Is that diameter the correct one to measure the copal?

Thank you all!

Sebastian

More photos of the lens and the dimensions

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Welcome to Photrio! By the way, I moved this thread to Large Format. You need a #0 ring.

 

[reddesert]

This one is actually a Compur #00 shutter and you need a #00 ring. The M25 ring you linked from B&H is the correct size. There are other places to get one that might have it in stock or be less expensive (ebay, customphototools.com, etc).

Standard retaining ring sizes for Compur shutters are:
size mount thread
#00 M25.0-0.5
#0 M32.5-0.5
#1 M39-0.75
#3 M62-0.75

Copal 0,1,3, are the same as Compur 0,1,3. There are some exceptions like a "Copal 3S" that you don't need to worry about right now.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, #00. Thanks for the correction.

 

[sebastianz]

Thank you, guys for the data! One more newbie question. Each focal length has it own Copal/compur mount thread?

 

[reddesert]

No, there are a limited number of sizes of shutters. For modern shutters only #00, 0, 1, and 3 as listed above. The shutter sizes are standard (mostly), and different lenses are made with cells to fit one of the shutter sizes. Typically, longer and/or faster lenses require the larger shutter sizes. For example, an older Super Angulon 90/8 like yours is made for a #00 shutter, a Fuji 90/8 uses a #0 shutter, a Symmar 150/5.6 uses a #1 shutter, a Symmar 210/5.6 also uses a #1 shutter.

However, the flange to focal plane distance is different for each lens (it can also be a few mm different between two different lenses of the same focal length, like a Schneider 90mm vs a Fuji 90mm). On a regular view camera the bellows travel allows for this, but if you make a 6x17 rigid camera and want to use different lenses, you need to have a focus mechanism with a lot of range, or allow for exchangeable lens cones, or something like that.

 

[abruzzi]

a few additions to @reddesert 's advice:

• the standardization on compur 00, 0, 1, 3 is great and I have frequently moved lens cells from one shutter to another. There a a few gotcha's though.

- Copal made some shutters marked "Copal #3" that are sligly different and incompatible--called the Copal 3S. Sometimes the shutters are marked 3S sometimes just 3.

- I've heard of (never encountered myself) lens cells that flare out from the threaded area in such a way that they fit only certain era shutters.

- Compur 3 shutters don't open their aperture as wide as Copal 3 (I have a Apo Ronar 480mm ƒ11 in a Compur #3 shutter and transplanted in a Copal #3 it would become a 480 ƒ9.)

- most importantly, the aperture scales on the shutter are lens specific. If you remove a symmar 180, and replace it with a Fuji 180, they'll probably be pretty close to right, but if you replace it with a Fuji 250, it will be way off.

• there are a lot of LF shutters that don't follow the Compur 00, 0, 1, 3 convention--Ilex, Compound (I think), Supermatic, and others. These are mostly on older lenses or Kodak lenses, but they don't have quite the interchangability that Compur/Copal have.

 

[sebastianz]

Hey @reddesert & @abruzzi thanks for the information, I learned something very useful.

However, the flange to focal plane distance is different for each lens

@reddesert since it is very specific, the distance is different for every 90mm f8 lens? or I have to use the one specific for my lens? if it so, is there any website to look for that data?

thanks in advance.

 

[abruzzi]

Specific to the lens design. Consider this page for Schneider lenses:

Schneider Kreuznach Vintage Lens Data – Roger Hyam

www.hyam.net

And look up the 90mm f8 Super Angulon

You’ll see the multi coated version is slightly different than the single coated version. That data all used to be on Schneider site but no longer. Now it’s the best source I know of for Schneider data. For Fuji data look at:

FUJINON LARGE FORMAT LENSES SORTED BY FOCAL LENGTH

For Nikkor, search for Nikkor large formate data sheets. Rodenstock im not sure of the best data source.

 

[mshchem]

That's a perfect choice for your project. These are phenomenal lenses.

 

[sebastianz]

Hello Guys, quick question, the lens has three letters, X, M & V as you can see in the first picture. What is their function? for V position I can't move the lever to that position.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MattKing]

X and M are two different settings for flash synchronization - X for electronic flash, M for a particular type of flashbulb synchronization.
I believe V is flash synchronization used in conjunction with a self timer.

 

[sebastianz]

Big thanks @MattKing !

 

[sebastianz]

Hello, Guys, I have another question; I will make a guide for the next DIYer that wants to make this camera in the future.

I'm confused. I did some research and came across the flange distance for a copal 0 (Here). I'm not finding the specific distance for my lens, it is compur #00. Should I use the same distance?

I will keep researching, but in case of not finding the distance I will have to make some test with film I guess.

The second question is, as the pdf says "flange focus at infinity" is that the hyperfocal distance? or the focus will depend on the F-number (i.e F8 will be a zone focus of 3 meters before the camera and infinity).

thanks in advance

 

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. Thanks for trying to be helpful by posting that table. The table lacks the manufacturer's name and lenses' names.

Flange-focal distance is measured from the back of the shutter.

Infinity is far, far away. The hyperfocal distance depends on the lens' focal length and the aperture set.

Lenses have, um, several focal lengths. The design focal length. In your table, is called "effective." This is the focal length of a perfectly made lens with glasses perfectly on specification. The marketing focal length. In your table it is called simply "Engraved." This is (surprise!) the focal length engraved on the lens. And then there's the actual focal length of the lens in hand as manufactured. Once upon a time I bought 20 38/4.5 Zeiss Biogons. This is the lens fitted to Hasseblad SW camera in all its variations. Design focal length is 38.5 mm. Marketing focal length is 38 mm. Actual focal lengths -- the camera manufacturer who received the lenses measured and marked them -- ranged from 38.3 mm to 38.8 mm.

If the camera you intend to make is fixed focus, you'll have to take a stab at the lens' flange-focal distance, make the body a little shorter than needed and use shims (focusing through the lens) to set the focus where you want it. If the camera is to have a focusing helical (or is a sliding nested box type) you'll have to do the same and the use shims so that the helical's marked infinity will focus the lens to infinity. Again, setting up requires focusing through the lens.

There are books on LF photography. Since your grasp of the concepts seems a little shaky, you should buy one and study it. You don't know enough about finding the information you need. Q&A on a bulletin board is not a good way to learn what you need to learn. This link https://www.largeformatphotography....to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses will take you to a discussion on LFPF. The first post in it has a link to an annotated list of links to sites of information of interest to LF photographers. Books, how-to DIY, lens and camera data and more. Try it out.

 

[sebastianz]

thanks @Dan Fromm , yes I have to teach myself through a book I will scout one on kindle. Dan, do you know which is the influence of copal or compur on the flange to film distance?

 

[Dan Fromm]

thanks @Dan Fromm , yes I have to teach myself through a book I will scout one on kindle. Dan, do you know which is the influence of copal or compur on the flange to film distance?

I gave you a link to information. The information includes older Schneider data sheets that have the answer to your question.

I realize that things are hard in Argentina these days. Still, if you can find the USD and are willing to wait for the mails to work, the books recommended in 'the list' are available inexpensively from used book dealers on the 'net. And the list has a link to a downloadable copy of Ansel Adams' book The Camera.

 

[John Koehrer]

I'd suggest a less technical book than "the camera" by Adams especially for someone ne
to the hobby.
"Using the View Camera" comes to mind, but there are several (dozens/hundreds) of them.
You might want to begin a thread about looking for a good Introduction to Large format book.

 

[sebastianz]

@John Koehrer thanks for the reply; yes, I will read a book to get the basics; in the meantime, I need to get out of the system these silly questions to move forward whit the project.