Schneider or Rodenstock Enlarging Lens?

[clayne]

Not really.

 

[MattKing]

Right, but my other question is if I have a 90 for 6x6, would I get any benefit out of adding an 80 to the kit?

Elsewhere you had mentioned that you forsaw in the future having the need to do larger (20x24?) enlargements. The 80 would make a difference there, especially if you are limited in space.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

While this approach has its merits, I would argue that playing with a few different lenses and choosing the ones you 'like' has its merits too. There is sample to sample variation, as well as differences in performance between lenses (tho not necessarily between brands overall, with one being better than the other).

The 50mm componon-s I have is reputedly a great lens and it is fine in use.... but when I print from my 63 Nikkor or 50 Neonon (cost about £10) I prefer the prints and I can pick them out quite easily when they are intermingled. Equally my 135 componon-s and 150 rodagon are effectively interchangeable.

Buying a few lenses and experimenting is not that time consuming and if you buy wisely you get your money back when you sell.

Just buy one or the other of them and make prints

If anyone here can correctly identify whether an enlarging lens was made in Kreuznach or Munchen from looking at a well made print I will give them all my Leica camera bodies for free

John

 

[PKM-25]

Probably extremely little difference other than externals.

So the non Apo Componon S doing equally as well as the Rodagon Apo? Since this might be the lens I do bigger than 20 x 24 with, won't I see an improvement in using an Apo?

 

[clayne]

Well for 20x24 yea I'd go with the APO.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Obviously you're getting a lot of opinions by people who haven't done critical testing. All the later Schneider,
Rodenstock, and Nikkor lenses will work well, but the premium Apo-Rodagon lenses will provide better fine gradation and a bit of extra sharpness. It's hardly worth it unless you're camera lenses and film are also equal to
the task, because 20X24 is quite a bit of enlargment for such a small negative. But if sheer crispness is what you're after, spending more and getting the apo lens will help. The only truly better enlarging lenses out there
are the Apo El Nikkors, which are dramatically more expensive, and I'm unaware of anything shorter than 105mm
in that series. I personally use a 150 Apo Rodagon for medium format, and it's conspicuously better than the
Compnon S lenses for both black and white and color use. It's also faster for all practical purposes (better corrected at max aperture or just one stop down).

 

[PKM-25]

Thanks Drew, I actually plan on printing as large as 40" x 40" so is there another lens besides an 80 I should be looking at for 6x6?

And I don't mind splurging on Apo glass, I want to do this purchase once....

 

[NB23]

Apo El-Nikkor is for you, then!

 

[NB23]

At those sizes the enlarger alignment is super critical. The alignment, the quality of the light, the condenser's performance at distributing light evenly, the stability... And then there is the dodging and burning, the filtering techniques, filter choices and so on. There are so many variables that in the end, you might be just fine with any high-quality lens. At that level, each little step is worth 1% and the Apo-Nikkor itself will only add 1% in quality.

These days I'm printing 16x20 FB prints. About 20 Prints per 5 hours session. From those 20 prints, I usually lose about 5 due to dry-down and overall unsatisfactory look (I want perfection). Everything plays a role for the perfect print: Even your mood while printing plays a bigger role then the enlarging lens. If you're somewhat tired while printing, believe me, you can end up throwing all your valuable prints in the garbage for having printed on a wrong Contrast filter the whole time. Even half a value can contribute to unsatisfactory results.

If I was you, I'd put a lot of time in building skills and on a great Focomat Ic enlarger, first.

By the waym where do you plan on getting 40" paper??

 

[PKM-25]

Ned,

I am already turning out great prints, the mural sizes are for later as customers request them. Ilford makes mural paper in RC and fiber up to 56" wide by 98 feet in rolls. I will get the 80 Apo but printing larger may happen when I visit San Fran, they have a great rental darkroom I will use, Rayko Photo Center...

 

[brian steinberger]

Damn, 40x40 is massive! I was printing some 11x14 FB today and forgot just how large that was. My goal one day is to print 16x20, which was obviously the reason for starting this thread. But space is an issue and all mistakes are just magnified more and ultimately cost more $$$ each time you mess up. I'm still not sure. I admire printers that print large.

 

[PKM-25]

Yeah, it is pretty big.

I am going to order a 42" x 98 foot roll of Warmtone fiber and have it shipped to my father in law in the bay area where he will store it for me. It's like $800 but gives me 28 = 42 x 42 inch print possibilities. Considering these would be small editions and and print to order, they will have a per unit cost of less than $100 each but go for upwards of 3 grand for individuals and slightly less for interior designers, etc.

So now the question becomes what lens do I get for this task, will my 90mm F/4 Apo-Rodagon work with a Durst CLS2000 diffusion enlarger or should I go with another lens...?

I just took in an nice order of paper today, 100 sheets of Warmtone in 11 x 14 and 16 x 20, yummy!!

 

[NB23]

Yeah, the rolls! But those are a PITA!

At those sizes I'd only consider RC. Washing 40" wide FB prints will be an incredible task.

 

[NB23]

Damn, 40x40 is massive! I was printing some 11x14 FB today and forgot just how large that was. My goal one day is to print 16x20, which was obviously the reason for starting this thread. But space is an issue and all mistakes are just magnified more and ultimately cost more $$$ each time you mess up. I'm still not sure. I admire printers that print large.

You admire their wallets, you mean?

Yeah, every mistake costs 5$ + 1 hour of your time. It adds up quickly.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I really prefer something longer than "normal" per format. You'll get better field illumination and probably better
definition near the corners, esp at relatively wide apertures. Something like 105 would be better than 75 in this respect. But forty inches is huge for medium format. A mural lens like Rodagon G might be appropriate, though it
would be an inferior performer at ordinary scales of magnification (it's a specialty enlarging lens, not a general
purpose one). Just depends how fussy you are and what you can spend. Think I'd rather have a 105 Apo Rodagon N instead of a G, just for the greater versatility. But even ordinary El Nikkors or Rodagons will do a pretty decent job, if you can't locate one of the Apo ones.

 

[DREW WILEY]

PS - washing large prints is easy if you find or make an oversize tray and locate one of those old
fashioned Kodak tray siphon attachments. They work very well for one print at a time. But there are
analogous ways to do it inexpensively.

 

[PKM-25]

Thanks again Drew, I will take a look around for that lens. They might even have it at the rental darkroom.

 

[NB23]

PS - washing large prints is easy if you find or make an oversize tray and locate one of those old
fashioned Kodak tray siphon attachments. They work very well for one print at a time. But there are
analogous ways to do it inexpensively.

I have access to a Zone VI 20x24 washer that makes washing FB and RC prints practically a joke. But at that size, one can manage very little FB prints. It's time and space consuming.
Washing anything larger then 20x24 in RC is easy: A hose and some space.
But FB is another story: washing huge FB prints one by one (one hour each), add toning for archival standards (another half-hour), then careful handling to avoid creases (half an hour overall), then dry them flat, well, it quickly becomes a millionaire's game.

To me, 16x20 FB is the maximum "easily" manageable size, or 20x24 if we're talking RC just because it dries quickly and washes in 10 minutes.

All in all, good luck in your endeavors. Try not to go mad

 

[clayne]

Bathtub soaking? Seems like semi frequent agitation and loose overlapping in a bathtub might get 80% of the way there.

 

[PKM-25]

For my own mural darkroom in the future, I'm sure I will come up with something slick for washing, I always do well at figuring it all out. For now, the rental darkroom has what it takes to deal with these monsters.

I love problems because I love solving them.

Drew, where the heck does one locate a 105mm Rodagon G? Is it just the non-Apo version of the lens and is it F/4, 5.6....?

 

[darkroom_rookie]

(...) where the heck does one locate a 105mm Rodagon G? Is it just the non-Apo version of the lens and is it F/4, 5.6....?

F5.6 and isn't particularly sharp below 10x magnification, but absolutely essential for 20x-30x blowups from medium format. You can get it from Munich. Used, of course.

 

[PKM-25]

F5.6 and isn't particularly sharp below 10x magnification, but absolutely essential for 20x-30x blowups from medium format. You can get it from Munich. Used, of course.

Munich, no idea where or what that is other than a city, any links?

 

[PKM-25]

This is incredibly troubling...a site that has many thousands of threads of all kinds of things but when it comes down to how one can professionally print a mural from 120 film in terms of a lens that will hold up and that I can *actually* buy and there is just no answer.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Bob Salomon can probably tell you where to find a Rodagon G. You can contact him at HP Marketing, which is the US distributor for Rodenstock.

 

[clayne]

Bob Carnie should also have some ideas on the best approaches here.

You have to remember that mural printing, even within the realm of professional printing, is still far off the bell curve.