Schneider 5.6 58mm XL, what do I do wrong?

[Frank53]

I got myself a Cambo Wide 58 with this lens. Received the camera yesterday and tested everything. Everything fine, all times sound ok.
Today I had another look and now, no matter what time I set, it always uses T and only closes when I tighten the shutter again. What do I do wrong and what is the function of the black knob (thought it was fot setting T, but don’t know now.

 

[B.S.Kumar]

The triangular button is to open the shutter for focusing, previewing, etc. When the red dot is seen, it means the shutter is open. As long as the shutter is open, it can be cocked, but not released. If you are able to release the shutter, it means there is something wrong.
To confirm, move the button to close the shutter - the red dot should not be seen. Cock the shutter and release it to see if it opens for the duration you set on the speed dial. Check each speed multiple times.

Kumar

 

[JPD]

It looks like this shutter:

 

[Frank53]

Thank you very much. I’ll see whether this helps, or maybe it needs service.

 

[Frank53]

Update:
All times work fine, the black knob for opening and closing works fine, but as soon as you set the time scale to B or T and open the shutter, you can’t go back to the other times. It takes a lot of fiddling with settings (can’t find out what exactly does the job) to get back to normal functioning. So I guess it needs servicing in the near future, but it works for now.

 

[shutterfinger]

A lever or levers are sticking when you use B or T. Exercising the shutter may get them to free up.
What shutter, Synchro Compur or Copal?

 

[MARTIE]

Are you changing the shutter settings AFTER you've cocked the shutter?
I don't wish to sound difficult, but I suppose you know how to operate the lens in the b & t positions?

 

[Frank53]

A lever or levers are sticking when you use B or T. Exercising the shutter may get them to free up.
What shutter, Synchro Compur or Copal?

It’s Copal 0 and I exercised the shutter a lot at all times. According to the seller, the camera/lens has not been used for at least 8 years, so I suppose some cleaning might help anyway. I send it out for servicing in januari and use it carefully until that time.

 

[Frank53]

Are you changing the shutter settings AFTER you've cocked the shutter?
I don't wish to sound difficult, but I suppose you know how to operate the lens in the b & t positions?

Usually before cocking the shutter, when using the camera, I do that to make sure not to make any unwanted exposures. But when exercising the camera, I may have changed the times while the shutter was cocked. That should no do any harm, does it? I do it all the time with leaf shutters in my mf camera’s.
Never too old to learn

 

[MARTIE]

To be honest, I've never actually looked it up or seen it written down anywhere regarding copal, compur, prontor etc. shutters. However, I've always understood it as good practice not to adjust shutter positions once the lens has been cocked to avoid damaging the shutter mechanics/mechanism.
Hopefully, someone with greater knowledge will shed some light on switching between shutter speeds as well as B & T positions while the lens is cocked.
It just seems intuitively wrong to me and question whether lenses are inadvertently broken due to malpractice?
Lets hope we get an answer, soon.

 

[MARTIE]

So, personally, with all of my large format lenses, I only change shutter positions when the lens is uncocked and never after. If I wish to change shutter position I first trigger the shutter and then make any changes. I also only use the preview mechanism with the lens in the uncocked position.

In 'B' bulb mode, the shutter remains open for as long as the shutter release is depressed, normally with a cable release. I can't imagine you'd change speeds during the exposure.

In 'T' time mode, normally again with a cable release, press once to open and press a second time to close the shutter. Hopefully, again, you don't adjust the shutter speed dial during the first open and the second close?

Sorry, if I may sound pedantic but it's not my intention.

 

[shutterfinger]

The standard rule of thumb is to only change shutter speeds when the shutter is in the released state. The reason for this is the pressure put on the speed ring and delay timing when cocked.
The cocking spring design was changed in most shutters resulting in no pressure being put on the mechanisms when cocked allowing the speeds to be changed in the cocked position.
Speeds above 1/125 use a booster spring to increase speed and cocking the shutter before moving to these speeds may be impossible.

 

[Frank53]

To be honest, I've never actually looked it up or seen it written down anywhere regarding copal, compur, prontor etc. shutters. However, I've always understood it as good practice not to adjust shutter positions once the lens has been cocked to avoid damaging the shutter mechanics/mechanism.
Hopefully, someone with greater knowledge will shed some light on switching between shutter speeds as well as B & T positions while the lens is cocked.
It just seems intuitively wrong to me and question whether lenses are inadvertently broken due to malpractice?
Lets hope we get an answer, soon.

Well, what I do know about ie a Hasselblad, that the first thing you do after taking a picture, is transporting the film and cocking the shutter. After that you can take another picture, change exposure, change lenses, change backs etc. This does not harm the Compur shutter at all. Same with the Rolleiflex tlr. I’ve been doing that for the last 50 years and it’s still in great shape. With LF it’s a bit different, because you use T to look through the lens, but as it is the same type of shutter, changing time after cocking the shutter should not be a problem, but as mentioned above, changing to T with a cocked shitter might cause the problem I had.

 

[shutterfinger]

Hasselblad and Mamiya RB/RZ shutters are deigned to be cocked for storage/lens change. The Synchro Compur shutters used in Rolleiflex/Rolleicord TLR's from the 1950's onward cocking mechanism does not put pressure on the speed adjustment or the delay timer. Rollei says to set the 1/500 before cocking the shutter.
The shutters used in these cameras are a modified version of a standard shutter. All shutters from a given manufacturer are a variation on a theme. Different sizes are scaled up/down copies of the standard shutter.
Your Copal should be good to change speeds from 1 second to 1/500 cocked but the shutter should be released before using B or T. Try to confirm
Read this National Camera Repair guide for the Copal 0 shutter;
https://learncamerarepair.com/downloads/pdf/NatCam-Copal-0-Shutter.pdf
There are other Copal repair manuals at https://learncamerarepair.com/index.php

 

[mshchem]

Well, what I do know about ie a Hasselblad, that the first thing you do after taking a picture, is transporting the film and cocking the shutter. After that you can take another picture, change exposure, change lenses, change backs etc. This does not harm the Compur shutter at all. Same with the Rolleiflex tlr. I’ve been doing that for the last 50 years and it’s still in great shape. With LF it’s a bit different, because you use T to look through the lens, but as it is the same type of shutter, changing time after cocking the shutter should not be a problem, but as mentioned above, changing to T with a cocked shitter might cause the problem I had.

You don't use the T setting for focusing, that's what that nifty lever (with the red dot) is for. That's a fancy modern shutter.

 

[Frank53]

Thanks all for your input.
So changing settings while the shutter is cocked, is ok for most mf lenses, but not for large format. And use the little black lever for opening the shutter only when the shutter is released (this might be what I did wrong). Everything is working fine now, made some test shots yesterday. Still think having the shutter checked and cleaned after not being used for so long is not a bad idea.

 

[MARTIE]

There's an expression, "Don't fix, what isn't broken".
If I were you, just go out, shoot and enjoy it. And IF you have any issues send it for a cla.
You might be better off finding an affordable centre filter, a Schneider iiib if you don't already have one?

 

[Frank53]

There is another saying “if its broken, it may be too late”. My information is that parts for this type of shutter is not available anymore.
I am looking for a center filter, but affordable is not likely to happen.

 

[shutterfinger]

I have stated this many times in various threads. A crude but ballpark accurate shutter speed test is
Place the shutter and a clock or watch with a second hand so that you can see both at the same time. Open the aperture to wide open. Set the shutter to 1 second and cock the shutter. Release the shutter just as the second hand reaches a second mark. The shutter should open fully, stay open, then close just as the second hand reaches the next second mark. Tolerance is the width of the second hand. Set the shutter to 1/2 second and repeat. The shutter should open then close when the second hand is mid way between the second marks. Tolerance is 1/2 the width of the second hand. If these two speeds are good then speeds through 1/125 are good also. Repeat each speed test 3 or 4 times as consistency is important also.
Age between CLA's is not as important as the speeds from 1 second to 1/125 being in tolerance. Tolerance is 20% or 1/3 stop either side of the marked speed. CLA when the speeds go out of tolerance.

 

[Frank53]

Tried that with stopwatch on my phone, not easy, but times seem ok.
Thanks for the tip!