Schneider 240 5.6 lens elements......what shutter....help.

[harlequin]

Dear Apug,

Was given some chrome Schneider large format elements, 240mm 5.6/420 mm f12
What shutter will work with this combo?

Compound?
Computer?
Coral?

I am on a budget so just a basic shutter would probably work, any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

Sincerely

Harlequin

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Dear Apug,..

You're more likely to get useful responses by addressing your question to participants at this site (PHOTRIO) rather than one that no longer exists.

...What shutter will work with this combo?

Compound?
Computer?
Coral?...

I'm not familiar with convertible Symmars, but suspect your third choice would be too fragile for practical use.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Harlequin, the original 240/5.6 Convertible Symmar was delivered in a Compound II 5/2. Size of shutter matters as much as make.

The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion will take you to a list of links to sources of information for LF photographers. They include links to old Schneider documentation and to information on shutters' dimensions.

Photrio, formerly, APUG is not the best site for getting help on LF equipment. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ is a much better anglophone site.

If your budget is tight, your best bet is to sell the 240 Symmar cells for what they will bring and look for a 240 in shutter or for 240 cells that will fit a common readily available shutter. A 240/9 G-Claron might suit you, its cells will fit a Compur/Copal #1.

 

[outwest]

I had a 240 Symmar convertible and I either traded it off or swiped the shutter for another lens. Its performance was not impressive. I'd take Dan's advice and move on to another lens. I can recommend a 240 Xenar.

 

[Marco Gilardetti]

Dear Harlequin, as already said by others the make of the shutter is not really important, the size of it matters. Shutters usually come in #00, #0, #1, #2 and #3 sizes. All sizes are pretty much equally common, except for #2 size which for some reason was very rarely used and is extremely uncommon (personally, I never saw one).

Unfortunately your lens should be mounted in a #2 shutter, which I believe will be nearly impossible to find and even harder to repair in case of damage, hence the previous suggestions to let the cells go and pick up another lens altogether (with which, alas, I have to agree). I actually guess that the cells you own came without shutter because the shutter was cannibalised in order to resurrect a more costy and reputed lens that had a broken shutter. I also suggest you exit this runaround, it's costy and not really worth it.

 

[Ian Grant]

I had a 240mm Symmar in a Compur #2 unfortunately it was stolen although I wasn't using it. Finding a Compound or Compur #2 shutter is extremely difficult these days there were some 240mm Symmar cells very cheap on ebay here in the UK. I looked at them for someone else as I'd just swapped a spare Copal #1 with 240mm aperture scales (from an Apo Ronar) for one marked with a 210 scale.

Ian

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dear Harlequin, as already said by others the make of the shutter is not really important, the size of it matters. Shutters usually come in #00, #0, #1, #2 and #3 sizes. All sizes are pretty much equally common, except for #2 size which for some reason was very rarely used and is extremely uncommon (personally, I never saw one)..

Marco, Compound shutters don't conform to the Compur/Copal/Prontor standard and some of the sizes come in a variety of tube lengths. Tube length matters.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Harlequin
I think the key word is "budget" I am not sure if you will find a shutter for cheeps, or even find a barrel to mount your lens cells. Although maybe an old BIG enlarger lens or one of those giant oscilloscope lenses that sell on the electronic garage sale might offer you at least a barrel or cheep shutter and mailing it to a lens-smith with a lathe to shim &c it would work. Sounds hit or miss and in the end not too cheep. If you are handy with cardboard, tapemeasure and adhesive tape you could always make yourself a home made barrel to mount your cells, and decide what fstops you like and make yourself some waterhouse stops ( even out of washers). I've done that, it's pretty cheep (cost of cardboard and tape ) takes a little skill doing the measurements, and in the end it is non-destructive and kind of fun.

Good Luck !
John

 

[Marco Gilardetti]

Thanks, I know it very well, but I believe it doesn't change anything in respect to the present matter and I thought it was useless information for the OP.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks, I know it very well, but I believe it doesn't change anything in respect to the present matter and I thought it was useless information for the OP.

Well, if the OP decides to buy a Compound (only after measuring the cells' diameter to make sure that this is correct) it will have to get the right size (number) and right size (tube length). And repeating the point that not all #2 shutters can be interchanged is useful too.

 

[Ian Grant]

Marco, Compound shutters don't conform to the Compur/Copal/Prontor standard and some of the sizes come in a variety of tube lengths. Tube length matters.

Neither do Dial-Set Compurs that's because of their common origin, it does need pointing out occasionally. There's a UK seller I wouldn't recommend on ebay selling a Dial set Compur as if it takes modern cells. On the other hand I picked up an unused Ibsor #1 shutter (un-engraved scale) and was surprised to find it was modern #1 threads.

It's easy with Compur's all rimset versions are the modern sizes #00, to #3 as are Prontor and Pronto's,but Compounds, Ibsor, ?Ibso and Vario were made in the older sizes as well as the current modern sizes. The Ibso is a pneumatic version of the Ibsor, contrary to many sources the Ibsor #1 shutters were in production into the mid 1950's with flash sync often un-named just the Gauthier badge.

Ian

 

[David Lindquist]

Dan, in post #3 did you really mean to say "Compound" and not "Compur"? I have a circa early 1960's brochure from "COMPUR-WERK FRIEDRICH DECKEL" showing the rim-set Compurs available in sizes 00, 0, 1, and 2 and the Compound shutters available in sizes 3, 4 and 5.

David

 

[Ian Grant]

Dan, in post #3 did you really mean to say "Compound" and not "Compur"? I have a circa early 1960's brochure from "COMPUR-WERK FRIEDRICH DECKEL" showing the rim-set Compurs available in sizes 00, 0, 1, and 2 and the Compound shutters available in sizes 3, 4 and 5.

David

Larger Compur's were slower to become available after WWII, the Compur factory had been very badly damaged in bombing raids most new shutter production was for volume sales of 35mm and 120 cameras, LF was small scale producyion.

My 1953 360mm TelE Xenar is in a Compound #3 and my 1954/5 120mm Angulon in an Ibsor #1, it was some time before the Compur #2 and #3 became readily available. Deckel were linked to Linhof and many of their first post WWII LF shutters were made and sold for Linhof select lenses.

Ian

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dan, in post #3 did you really mean to say "Compound" and not "Compur"? I have a circa early 1960's brochure from "COMPUR-WERK FRIEDRICH DECKEL" showing the rim-set Compurs available in sizes 00, 0, 1, and 2 and the Compound shutters available in sizes 3, 4 and 5.

David

David, yes I meant Compound. I quoted a Schneider brochure. Compound shutters' sizes don't conform to the Compur/Copal/Prontor standard.

 

[Ian Grant]

There is a 240mm Symmar with fungus in a Compur #2 on ebay, it may go for silly money as they are so rare.

As Dan says a 1962 Schneider catalogue indicates the 240mm Symmar is in a Compound II 5/2 at that point.

Ian

 

[jimgalli]

The reason old Schneider 240mm convertible elements are floating around shutter-less is because people buy them in the original Compur #2 (obsolete size) shutter in order to steal the shutter for a 150mm f2.8 Xenotar which it also fits. Finding a #2 Compur shutter is like finding a female of wife age in China. Someone may have a barrel (orphaned from an f2.8 xenotar) that would fit your lens elements and then you could at least have a play with them.

 

[EdSawyer]

Jim is right on why Compur 2s are uncommon. Obviously someone already robbed this lens of it, since the only real value in that lens is in the shutter. Spare compur 2s can be found on ebay occasionally (I got my spare one there) but expect to pay $200+ for one.

 

[jimgalli]

You could buy this to get the shutter. Actually that might be kind of fun. You could see what 2 rear groups would give you focally, and 2 front groups. Might turn out to be a casket set. ;~'))

 

[Dan Fromm]

Jimbo, until the OP measures the cells' threads we have no idea which shutter they fit.

 

[jimgalli]

Jimbo, until the OP measures the cells' threads we have no idea which shutter they fit.

All the convertibles fit the Compur 2. A few got put in Compur 3's with bushings and then it was time for the Symmar-S.

 

[Dan Fromm]

All the convertibles fit the Compur 2. A few got put in Compur 3's with bushings and then it was time for the Symmar-S.

Jimbo, I have a Schneider brochure that says the 240/5.6 was delivered in II 5/2. I've checked Benoit Suadeau's list, you're right and I was mistaken, it is a Compur, not a Compound.

I just checked the Compur service manual. It gives dimensions for Compur #2 Tube 5/I, 5/II and 6/II. They have the same ODs. 5/I and 5/II have tubes threaded 45.8 mm x 40 TPI (64 degrees) front and rear. 6/II is threaded 49.65 mm x 40 TPI (64 degrees). They have tube lengths of 35 mm, 25 mm and 30.80 mm respectively.

The OP needs a Compur #2 5/2. The other two sizes of Compur #2 are wrong for the 240/5.6 convertible Symmar.

 

[David Lindquist]

Jimbo, I have a Schneider brochure that says the 240/5.6 was delivered in II 5/2. I've checked Benoit Suadeau's list, you're right and I was mistaken, it is a Compur, not a Compound.

I just checked the Compur service manual. It gives dimensions for Compur #2 Tube 5/I, 5/II and 5/III. They have the same ODs. 5/I and 5/II have tubes threaded 45.8 mm x 40 TPI (64 degrees) front and rear. 5/III is threaded 49.65 mm x 40 TPI (64 degrees). They have tube lengths of 35 mm, 25 mm and 30.80 mm respectively.

The OP needs a Compur #2 5/2. The other two sizes of Compur #2 are wrong for the 240/5.6 convertible Symmar.

Thank you Dan, you just saved me a bit of typing. I do have a 1966 Schneider brochure that refers to two versions of the No. 2 Compur, a "II 5/2 " and a "II 6/2", so perhaps one additional version to be added to what your repair manual shows. This brochure shows the 5/2 was used for the 150mm Xenotar, the 240mm Symmar, the 165mm Angulon, and the 355mm Repro-Claron. The 6/2 was used for the 180mm Xenar. This brochure also uses "I" (Roman numeral) to refer to the No. 1 Compur.

Many years ago I had an email from the late Steve Grimes where he used the wondeful phrase "The miracle of screw threads". In that spirit I'm asking if you would confirm that the repair manual in fact gives a thread angle of 64 degrees (and not 60 degrees).

David

 

[Dan Fromm]

Fair question, David. I just checked. 64 degrees it is. If there's a typo, it is the service manual's, not mine.

I'm really glad you asked, there was a typo (mine). 6/II, not 5/III. I've corrected my post.

The service manual gives a 64 degree pitch for all versions of #3, 4 and 5 shutters' tubes' inner threads. The mount threads (rear tube outer threading) vary, but that doesn't bear on the OP's question.

FYI, there's a link to the service manual in "the list" and post #3 above has directions for finding the list.

 

[David Lindquist]

Thank you for checking that Dan. And again thank you so much for providing "the list".
David

 

[outwest]

David, thanks for posting the uses of the 5/2. I probably used the shutter from the 240 for my 165 Angulon and then used it for my 305 G-Claron (Dagor). My inventory lists the 165 and 305 sharing the shutter but I suppose the 240 elements were gone by then.