Saving water in the Darkroom

[fmariasilva]

Hi everyone!

First of all, I apologize if this is not an issue that falls under this topic but I have not found a more suitable place to publish this Thread.

I don't believe it's just me who, since I started working in my darkroom, saw the water bills go up. And I fear that I will not be able to continue working as regularly as I liked considering that I have to keep my bills low. I used to pay around € 45 / $ 54,41 and from one month to the next, from developing some films (I haven't even started printing yet), the bill went up to around € 60 / $ 72.54.

Any tips for saving water in the darkroom? Alternative washing processes for films after developing it and even for paper after printing?

 

[Kino]

There are many threads in Photrio devoted to this very subject.

Try searching for "washing film" and "Illford Wash Method" and start from there.

Methods vary from using washing aids to alkaline stop baths and beyond with many strong opinions on all sides.

 

[bernard_L]

Any tips for saving water in the darkroom? Alternative washing processes for films after developing it and even for paper after printing?

Film. Look up "Ilford procedure"
Prints. Using the water from the faucet for agitation is wasteful. You only need three water renewals for complete washing. Provide agitation by independent means, e.g. pump. Save even more water by counter-flow: cascaded trays, prints move in direction opposite of water.

 

[fmariasilva]

Prints. Using the water from the faucet for agitation is wasteful. You only need three water renewals for complete washing. Provide agitation by independent means, e.g. pump. Save even more water by counter-flow: cascaded trays, prints move in direction opposite of water.[/QUOTE]

I'm afraid I didn't understand the procedure here. Is there any video u know to check this proccess?

 

[gone]

If you cut down on frivolous activities like bathing and drinking water you should have plenty of extra water for the photography. Have to prioritize these things.

 

[bernard_L]

I'm afraid I didn't understand the procedure here. Is there any video u know to check this proccess?

I did not provide a detailed description because this topic has been discussed many times. Possibly the most comprehensive reference is:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344
Make sure you read the document itself before you read the comments.

Slightly more detail. The old-school method is to put the prints in a tray with a continuous flow of water from the faucet. You need a flow of water for two purposes:
1. To agitate the prints and promote the exchange of fixer from the paper into the surrounding water
2. To replace fixer-laden water with clean water in order to achieve very low fixer concentration in the paper
If you use the water from the faucet for agitation (1), you use a lot more water than required for (2).

As an example, my setup is a tray (for 13x18cm prints) or a larger basin, size 55x70cm for larger prints up to 30x40cm. And one waterproof, submersible aquarium pump. After fixing, 5min rinse, Hypo Clear, put half a dozen prints in the tray or basin. Fill with water up to 5cm high. Aquarium pump fixed by succion cups in one corner, powered. 10 min. Empty water. Repeat twice (3x total). In case someone asks, I tested for residual hypo with Kodak HT-2, and it looks OK after 2 iterations, so the third one is just the safety margin. When I was younger, I was a lot less careful, and as far as I know, only one print from that time shows signs of deterioration. More than I can say about color prints from the photo store.
Other people have different setups; I do not want to start a discussion about what is best; just trying to answer your question in a concrete way.

I don't have a video. Words are more precise. You can read at your own pace.

 

[Old_Dick]

I found this https://justinrichards.xyz/blog/reduced-water-usage-print-washer/ very interesting. He uses an aquarium canister filter and reuses the same water. I got the URL from
https://www.linabessonova.photography/videos#/archival-washing/.

 

[bernard_L]

I found this https://justinrichards.xyz/blog/reduced-water-usage-print-washer/ very interesting. He uses an aquarium canister filter and reuses the same water. I got the URL from

So, this guy uses an aquarium pump like me. I have three comments, though.

1. 18 gallons is a lot of water. 68 litres.
   
2. The same water (the 18 gallons) is used for fixer-laden prints at the start of washing and for the final stages where one tries to reach very low fixer content. I won't go into the detailed argument, but it's straightforward to show that (for the same final fixer concentration) this requires a lot more water than if you change water in several small amounts. For similar reasons, a washing machine performs several rinses, each with a limited amount of water, rather than fill once the drum with water.
   
3. I'd like to see evidence that activated charcoal is effective to trap thiosulfate, and information on: (a) when does it ned to be regenerated, and how does one perform regeneration.

 

[MattKing]

The regular "B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry" sub-forum is probably the best place for this, but don't worry about the location. The moderators can move it if they think it is necessary.
What rate does your water supplier charge you for water?
I ask, because even very wasteful water usage in a darkroom doesn't usually cause a 25% increase in use. Unless, of course, your non-photographic use of water is really low!
It would be worthwhile to calculate how much extra water use is involved in that increase of cost.
That being said, most people tend to use too high a volume and flow of water.
When you are washing film or paper, you normally only need a very small flow. For washing film, Kodak recommends the following:
"Remove the top from the tank. Run the wash water at least fast enough to provide a complete change of water in the tank in 5 minutes. For rapid washing in a small tank, fill the tank to overflowing with fresh water and then dump it all out. Repeat this cycle 10 times."
As for prints, Kodak's recommendation for RC prints is as follows:
"Transfer your print to the wash tray. Wash for 4 minutes in gently running water at a temperature between 50 and 85°F (10 and 30°C). Avoid overwashing."
Here is a link to the Kodak introductory document: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/AJ-3-2016.pdf

 

[Pieter12]

How to save water and still wash your prints to archival standards: bathe 3 times a week or less. Or print on RC paper.

 

[BrianShaw]

OP... Besides looking just at the money portion of the bill you might want to check out the two other factors: actual water usage and water rates. Where I live we see our water bill increasing even when actual water usage has decreased due to a bizarre rate structure. First we are encouraged to conserve water then the rates are increased because revenue is down. If all I saw was that kind of increase I’d probably take an extra long celebratory shower!

 

[Alex Benjamin]

If you cut down on frivolous activities like bathing and drinking water you should have plenty of extra water for the photography. Have to prioritize these things.

I've been using Ilford's Washaid as soap. Cut my shower time in half.

Seriously now, Ilford's film washing method: fill the tank with water at the same temperature as the processing solution and invert it 5 times. Drain the water away and refill then invert the tank 10 times. Finally, drain and refill the tank again then invert it twenty times before draining. Finally do a last rinse adding a few drops of ILFOTOL wetting agent added to the water. This is not essential but does help the film dries quickly and evenly.

 

[FotoD]

Is there any video u know to check this proccess?

Lina Bessonova posted a YouTube video on archival washing recently. IIRC her testing showed that for fiber papers 10m under running water + 3 x 30m stand in fresh water was as good as archival washers with running water. Don't remember her process before washing though.

 

[Auer]

Ilford method, or a Jobo Cascade if you have a Jobo Tank.

 

[wiltw]

Use RC papers, rather than paper backed
Use Hypo Clearing Agent after the Fix
Use other water conservation techniques mentioned,

 

[grain elevator]

As this is in the alternative processes subforum: do cyanotype instead of silver gelatine - less washing required iirc! I thought about this advantage of it the other day, water isn't as crazy expensive here but washing is a nuisance. Seriously an option now that the feasibility of homemade UV enlargers has been demonstrated to us. Not sure about water consumption of other reasonably easy processes like vdb, might also be less than washing silver gelatin fibre paper?

 

[ruilourosa]

podes sempre ir buscar uns baldes de água ao mar... é particularmente eficiente...

Usa o método de lavagem da ilford, mas no final lava sempre mais um bocadinho... podes usar fixador neutro ou ligeiramente alcalino, lava bem mais rápido... podes usar, depois do fixador e de uma breve passagem por água corrente, uma solução a 2% de sulfito de sódio que encurta o tempo de lavagem para metade...

quanto às provas... corta na água corrente e faz mudas de àgua, por ex.: 10 mudas de àgua de 10 minutos cada... mas tenta sempre passar por água primeiro...

há muita coisa escrita sobre o assunto e há muita gente a tentar reinventar a roda... através de uns videozinhos no tubi, lê livros e esquece o youtub, onde toda a gente tem muitas opiniões

com os melhores cumprimentos!!

RL

 

[tballphoto]

I've been using Ilford's Washaid as soap. Cut my shower time in half.

Seriously now, Ilford's film washing method: fill the tank with water at the same temperature as the processing solution and invert it 5 times. Drain the water away and refill then invert the tank 10 times. Finally, drain and refill the tank again then invert it twenty times before draining. Finally do a last rinse adding a few drops of ILFOTOL wetting agent added to the water. This is not essential but does help the film dries quickly and evenly.

Thats exactly what I am doing and it seems to work on film. dump the fixer out, and just top off with water, put the so called safety cap on, invert like crazy for 30 seconds, dump, then repeat for 3 times.

Hypo wash is only going to help but i did not use it today. However the 1 shot developer, and the 3 rinses barely filled 1/3 of a gallon milk jug. Same amount if i do 1 roll of 120, or 1 or 2 rolls of 35mm.

Two notes of interest, I am not interested in going for the long term, survive the nuclear holocaust archival process. I am not worried if the negative is not going to be usable in 600 years when some alien visits the ruins of earth in 500 years and finds my developed negatives..

 

[beemermark]

If you cut down on frivolous activities like bathing and drinking water you should have plenty of extra water for the photography. Have to prioritize these things.

Drink bottled water. Use public restrooms. Not sure about where you live but here the utility charges a high base $$ charge. If you go slightly over your bill skyrockets. But yes, there are many posts on cutting done water usage. And important thing about washing and fixing film, if your not going to keep your film archived for museums then you can minimize the washing and filming. After half a century of negative storage I've gone to short baths, minimum fixing, scan (or print) and then throw the negatives away.

 

[tballphoto]

Drink bottled water. Use public restrooms. Not sure about where you live but here the utility charges a high base $$ charge. If you go slightly over your bill skyrockets. But yes, there are many posts on cutting done water usage. And important thing about washing and fixing film, if your not going to keep your film archived for museums then you can minimize the washing and filming. After half a century of negative storage I've gone to short baths, minimum fixing, scan (or print) and then throw the negatives away.

It also depends upon the chemicals you are using. Very dependent upon that. The ones that say "hypo wash is optional choice to make" tend to be the better choice. I got suckered into trying that cinestill sucker bath stuff, it worked, but i discovered that there was massive quality change in the developed negatives after a year.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Use Ilford's method for washing your film and paper. I'll bet you waste more water when showing. When showering, turn water off while lathering yourself up. Limit yourself to 10 min.

 

[mshchem]

Drink bottled water. Use public restrooms. Not sure about where you live but here the utility charges a high base $$ charge. If you go slightly over your bill skyrockets. But yes, there are many posts on cutting done water usage. And important thing about washing and fixing film, if your not going to keep your film archived for museums then you can minimize the washing and filming. After half a century of negative storage I've gone to short baths, minimum fixing, scan (or print) and then throw the negatives away.

This ought to stir up some one. I love my negatives and slides

 

[tballphoto]

Use Ilford's method for washing your film and paper. I'll bet you waste more water when showing. When showering, turn water off while lathering yourself up. Limit yourself to 10 min.

If you want to save water bathing, the us army field manual has 30 pages of bathing with a PINT of water. although you wont get the hair taken care of unless you go fuzzy wuzzy up top.

 

[Dwayne Martin]

I had the idea to repurpose the wash water by diverting it to a cistern then using it for irrigation. Never got around to setting it up and I already have a irrigation well anyway. Might be a good solution for someone out there though….

 

[pentaxuser]

Prints. Using the water from the faucet for agitation is wasteful. You only need three water renewals for complete washing. Provide agitation by independent means, e.g. pump. Save even more water by counter-flow: cascaded trays, prints move in direction opposite of water.

I'm afraid I didn't understand the procedure here. Is there any video u know to check this proccess?[/QUOTE]
Is the word faucet that is unfamiliar? We don't use this word in the U.K. either. If it helps it simply means a water tap that delivers fresh water from the water pipes that supply the house. So it's fresh water from the tap water and you use it according to the Ilford procedure which is to fill the tank and vigorously invert tank 5 times then pour out. Do the same again with another fill of fresh water and invert 10 times and finally do it for the third time for 20 inversions The film is now completely washed and you have used maybe as little as 750mls of water and no more than 1.5 litres if the film is 120 instead of 35mm

I hope this helps

pentaxuser