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Brian Gatien

Brian Gatien

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I may have an opportunity for a quick trip to Saudi Arabia; leaving in October for about a week. Any help on what I should generally know or think about? Any photographic advice? Any APUGers in Riyadh?
 
Become culturally aware before you go - Saudi is still a very conservative muslim nation, and there may well be many taboos that you're unaware of that are things you do on a commonplace basis at home. Don't shake hands (or eat) with the left hand, don't drink alcohol, bring gifts to the home of anyone whose home you are invited to, don't take photos inside a mosque unless it is explicitly permitted, don't photograph women, maintain proper attire (no shorts or t-shirts), etc...
 
I am going with my co-vivant who is part of a team doing the hospital accreditation. The sponsoring group is supposed to send us some material on cultural sensitivity. She tells me that, at the very least, she is required to wear an abbaya (full-length cloak) and a head scarf and she is not go out without being accompanied by a man. That should be interesting for someone who is accustomed to go where she wants when she wants with or without anyone.

Apart from mosque interiors and women, do you know about any other photographic sensitivities? I believe that we are there after Ramadan is over.
Thanks for the tip on shorts.
 
BRG said:
I may have an opportunity for a quick trip to Saudi Arabia; leaving in October for about a week. Any help on what I should generally know or think about? Any photographic advice? Any APUGers in Riyadh?
Click to expand...

As one who lived there for 10 years my photograpic advice is simple; don't.:sad:
 
Dave;
Surely your advice is exaggerated. Is there no opportunity at all? I understand Ian's advice as some common sense; however, there can't be such a strict prohibition, can there?
Thanks
Brian
 
My experience is that there can be, especially in Riyadh. It is a very intolerant society, many people there will take very strong exception to being photographed, and there is also a strong anti-western resentment ever ready to manifest itself.
 
I would strongly reiterate Dave’s comment – DON’T. There are opportunities but you would need to be very well informed before taking any chances.
Given the above, I spent 3 years there and had a good time; do not believe all the horror stories. But do take a low profile.

David.
 
I have not lived in Saudi Arabia, but I have visited there a number of times, and based on that experience, I would tend to agree with Dave Miller.

There are two considerations. One is the availability of subject matter. To be quite frank, Riyadh is a very boring place - it's in the middle of a desert, and is comprised of very many very modern buildings. It's too hot to enjoy walking around, and even if you could stand the heat, there's not that much to see and photograph. Private residences are all contained behind large walls, and it's considered a breach of etiquette to even look through an open gate at a private residence.

The second issue is that of tolerance. Tolerance is a limited commodity in the Kingdom, and it diminishes as one travels in a westward direction. Riyadh is halfway between the relatively westernized communities around Dhahran and Kobar, and the religious enclaves of Mecca and Medinah. One of my coworkers was arrested and imprisoned for attempting to make a photograph near Mecca.

Frankly, the only area I found where photography was interesting and reasonably possible was in the Eastern Province, and in particular around some of the old desert fortifications near Hofuf.

Saudi Arabia is a land of paradox. Inside, it is quite a safe place where family values are held in very high esteem. On the other hand, the environment can be oppressive, an one has the feeling that the religious police are constantly watching everything that foreigners do. The formalities involved in entering and exiting the Kingdom are the most difficult I experienced in years of traveling around the world, the airports are pretty grim places, and it seems that incoming and outgoing flights are scheduled between midnight and 6am just to make the experience more tedious!
 
A few extra thoughts. First, I'm not familiar with the term 'co-vivant' but if it means any sort of romantic partner other than 'wife', I'm reasonably confident that you will have separate bedrooms and will be expected to stay in them. Second, photography can actually be regarded as illegal in itself under Islamic law because you are making representations, though few save the hardest of hard-liners are likely to push this one. Third, I've only passed through various Gulf states on my way to India, but from what I've seen of the region, there's one law for the locals and another for visitors. Fourth, although I have met very few Saudis socially, I have found the great majority to be quite charming, so it's not a society of ogres; it's just a society that can be very hard to understand.
 
I couldn't agree more with David and Louie -- Riyadh is VERY boring, there is virtually nothing old or historic there to photograph, it's very modern and sterile, and Wahabi sensitivities and suspicions will make it difficult for anyone trying to make photos. Not to mention the police and military who may seize your gear and clap you in jail if you inadvertently shoot something that is forbidden. If you get a chance to visit Jordan, Oman, or Yemen, however, you'll go crazy with all the awesome photographic opportunities that await you in those places and the people are much more tolerant!
 
Thanks for all the comments, I will re-think the adventure.

From Roger: First, I'm not familiar with the term 'co-vivant' but if it means any sort of romantic partner other than 'wife', I'm reasonably confident that you will have separate bedrooms and will be expected to stay in them.

Roger: co-vivant: a northern Ontario term combining French (vivant, as in living) and co for the togetherness of the living. [I guess we could say co-livers in English but that might mean we share an organ] We really do not like "significant other" or "life partner" or those kinds of things. Vickie and I have these life experiences that we somehow get into every day. Way more than romance, formalized only in the legal sense according to our Family Law Act, no other formality. I will have to tell her about the separate bedrooms thing.
 
BRG said:
Way more than romance, formalized only in the legal sense according to our Family Law Act, no other formality. I will have to tell her about the separate bedrooms thing.
Click to expand...
Yes, well, Frances and I HAD to get married. Not the usual reason: just that we were dealing with two of the most poisonous and arrogant immigration systems on Earth, namely UK (I'm a Cornishman) and US (she was born in upstate New York). The Canadian Family Law Act sounds much like a PACS here in France.

Bonne courage!

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Yes, well, Frances and I HAD to get married. Not the usual reason: just that we were dealing with two of the most poisonous and arrogant immigration systems on Earth, namely UK (I'm a Cornishman) and US (she was born in upstate New York). The Canadian Family Law Act sounds much like a PACS here in France.
Click to expand...

It is similar to a pacte civil de solidarite but goes way beyond the European concept. Our act (provincial not federal) simply deems couples (including same-sex couples) who live in open and obvious co-habitation for a period of time to be spouses (or have a child of the union). That's great for here but it sounds as if it won't make a bit of difference in Saudi. [sigh]

I will see about travel outside Riyadh or perhaps just not pack the cameras.

Brian
 
Not going

So here is the flash. I am not going.

Vickie and I discussed all the helpful comments above and the cultural sensitivity package she received from the sponsoring group. We have decided that there is no point in spending $10,000 for me to go if I can't roam around. [The material says that I must be accompanied everywhere and I must have official permission for photographs]. Along with the advice found above there are even more restrictive directions from the sponsoring group, especially for her. While she will be very busy with the hospital accreditation, I might end up sitting in the hotel room for the duration.

So - not going. Going to spend the money on Fort Collins. I presume we can be in the same hotel room in Colorado and hold hands in public. :smile:
 
BRG said:
Perhaps the Aquitaine next time. Vickie and I have mostly been in Paris, Tours and Nice.
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I'm 60 miles south of Tours, in the northernmost Aquitaine by English reckoning: Thouars (15 miles away) was the last major city to fall to the French in the Hundred Years' War. The donjon about 400 yards away from my house was held by the English for a year or so, I forget when.
 
Really, why don't try what mmcclellan said. While your co-vivant works in Saudi Arabia, you can visit Jordan and like for example.
You could be surprised, there is (in desert) one historic "building", old bath, made and owned by muslim (islamic) owners, built few hundreds years ago, maybe more than 1000 years old. And inside walls of that bath are filled with erotic paintings (nude man and woman). Or was that is in Syria, it is for sure in one of these two countries...

Just one example that Islam is (was) not that oppressive as people think :smile: Atleast not everywhere. Come here for example and see for yourself :smile:

Saudi Arabia is where most holly place for muslims is, if you ever heard of Kaba, (black stone), in Mecca, so I am not surprised for them to be as they are , combine that fact with traditionally patriarchal and oppressing society, and Islamic law of forbidding making images of people and animals...

I mean try to freely show love in Vatican. Or at that jewish holly place, remaining wall of second temple in Jerusalem. I would like to see reaction of Catholics or Jews in those two places in that situation :smile:
 
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While it's not impossible to get visas to go to Syria, at this point in time, as a US Citizen, I would question the wisdom of going there as a tourist, especially if your work has anything to do with the federal government. Jordan is better, if only because they're a more solid ally, but still a bit dubious. That said, there are some magnificent sights to visit in Jordan, and no issues with photographing them.
 
Brian,
If you want to see a Muslim country that has got its act together, come to Oman. The people here are very friendly and photography is a passion with some of them – albeit digital!
Their cultural identity is well established, they do not have a problem with visitors, in fact they welcome them.
Oman developed its own particular form of Islam, called Ibadhism.
Omanis are not only tolerant of the beliefs of different Muslim divisions; they are also tolerant towards believers of other faiths, who are allowed to practise their religion in churches and temples. (You don’t see that mentioned on CNN!!)
The photo opportunities are endless, with historical sites going back 2500 BCE.

David.
 
Interesting additional comments on travelling and photographing in the Middle East. While the suggestions for Oman and Jordan (and Sarajevo) were intriguing, those places will have to wait for another time. The point of the trip was to go along with Vickie. I would not be keen on leaving her in one country while I travelled to others, even if we were in separate hotel rooms and it was ultra-safe for her to be on her own (well, escorted as women have to be).
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.
Brian

P.S. Flying Camera: while Canadians have a bit more freedom to travel than U.S. citizens (many countries do not require visas from us while they do require them for you guys), I agree that the trip would be a bit dubious and, at this time, I would not have thought of it as destination. It just seemed opportune when someone else was proposing it.
 
I back Daud. I had the opportunity to go to Oman and, since the very first contact with Passport Control officers till the moment I left, they are the most charming, nice and friendly people I have met in the Arab countries (and I have extensively been in Bahrain, Dubai and Kwait).

Cheers
 
I'll put in a plug for Yemen, it's poor but very scenic. Not only that, but Americans can get the visa at the Sana'a airport! People here tend to mind their own business, I've seen girlfriend/boyfriend and even girlfriend/girlfriend couples visiting here with no problems. Anyway, it's not cheap to get here, but once you do, it's pretty cheap to visit!

Oh, and one more thing.. Qatar airlines now flys from DC to Doha, it makes some trips (like to Sana'a) much less expensive and time consuming for some of us...


Isaac
 
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