SALT PRINTING - Wish you knew then but do now?

JOHN McMURTRIE · Apr 27, 2017

Hi, I am new to the Salt printing process but not new to photography.

I am very excited to get started, but wondered if there was any advise from the more experienced here for a newbie? I have a contact frame on order and am preparing my digital negatives and as yet I haven't picked up my chemistry. I understand the science involved and the process but wondered what surprises you had when you first started printing? I understand there is an element of self-discovery with this process but any do's or definitely don'ts I would love to hear.

Thanks

John Mc. London, UK.

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 8, 2017

Gelatine or not to Gelatine in the salt solution? Thoughts? anyone...Bueller? Tumbleweed, Bell chimes, Crows craw!

greg zinselmeier · May 8, 2017

definitly gelatin, also Your choice of paper is critical for success. ONly 100% rag,,,,, NO fillers, no PH buffers, no china clay, no brighteners. . . .just plain 100% rag. or else evrything "in it" will gum up the works ( disaster)_ . .. so to speak.

greg zinselmeier · May 8, 2017

you should read, if you havent already

MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING
COLOUR AND AESTHETIC
APPEARANCE OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT
A thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for
the degree of Master of Applied Science (Photography)
Eleanor (Ellie) D. Young
School of

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 8, 2017

Thanks Greg. I read not to bother with gelatine but most of the problems I have also read are down to not having a good barrier made before the Silver Nitrate goes on so Gelatine I guess is a must. I will try using Gelatine first and thanks for the heads up on the paper.

TheToadMen · May 8, 2017

Hi John,
I would try both. The first prints made by the inventor WHF Talbot were made without gelatine (= Salted Paper), giving it a distinctive look. Only later the gelatine and/or albumen was added to prevent for the solution to sink to deep into the paper, thus to get a sharper image.
So try both in combinations with several types of paper and see what you like best. And take a look al Albumen Printing too. It's very similar to Salt Printing.

If you're interested in the history of WHF Talbot and the evolution of the salt process, see:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tlbt/hd_tlbt.htm
and
http://foxtalbot.bodleian.ox.ac.uk

Enjoy the process!
Bert from Holland

TheToadMen · May 8, 2017

Some books to get started with salt printing:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D3C6ZBY/ref=pe_385040_192566490_TE_M1T1DP
and
http://www.lulu.com/shop/ellie-young/the-salt-print-manual/paperback/product-18712581.html

For Albumen Printing:
http://www.alternativephotography.com/the-albumen-print/

pdeeh · May 9, 2017

Ellie Young has published a revised version of her thesis as a book. Can't remember what it's called.

In contradistinction to greg z, I would not be so categoric about ruling in or out papers and/or sizes.

As you note yourself in your OP, alt printing is often a journey of discovery. If you try a paper and find it produces the results you like, then it won't matter a jot whether it is jammed with resin internal sizes and made of mashed up old matchsticks rather than pure unblemished rag.

Keeping things simple and sticking with one paper and only varying process (dilutions, sizes, coating method, whatever) one variable at a time is a reliable way of achieving consistent results; but of course only if consistency is your aim.

I've been making salt prints, Namias sepia prints & cyanotypes for two or three years now.
One thing I still have to force myself to remember is that when I mix two equal volumes of the same dilution ratio of two materials, I am doubling the dilution of each in the total final volume

The only other couple of things I'd say are:
If you're not using a paper that you know is absolutely alkali-free, acidify it before trying a salt print on it (I use Citric acid, others use different acids. There's an interesting thread on acidification of paper with Sulfamic acid to read in the alt process subforum). It'll reduce the chances of chemical fogging.
And do use Citric acid in your sensitiser. Same reason - reduces risk of fogging (thanks NedL )

Oh, and those papers that are recommended by the (usually American) writers on alt printing?
Most of them either unavailable or spectacularly expensive in the UK (though being in London will help you in that regard as you have local access to merchants like Shepherds, Burt and John Purcell).

Cheapest source I've found for nice watercolour papers (eg Fabriano) is via the Great Art (Gerstaecker) website. If you sign up to their newsletter and open an account, they send you offers all the time, some of which are amazing bargains (most months they seem to have a 20% or 30% off everything offer). They ship from Germany but it rarely takes more than 3 days. Of course once Brexit takes place this'll stop being any good to us, but in the meantime, fill yer boots, as they say

anyway, good luck, enjoy yourself.

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 10, 2017

Thanks for the excellent advise. I have my frame and chemicals on order. Is there a huge amount of quality difference with the OHP material? I just checked out and there is so many different makes of inkjet OHP! I was going to just buy some from Staples. Any recommendations please? Hoping to do a few test prints this weekend. Thanks. John

pdeeh · May 10, 2017

Ooh John you will get your wrist slapped by the none-so-pure fraternity if you start asking questions about digital matters!
You're only supposed to ask those things over at DPUG.
(Though whether anyone will hear you over the sound of tumbleweed rolling past and the deafening calling of crickets is another matter.)

But with a bit of luck, someone who knows will risk it for a biscuit and answer you here ...

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 10, 2017

pdeeh said:
Ooh John you will get your wrist slapped by the none-so-pure fraternity if you start asking questions about digital matters!
You're only supposed to ask those things over at DPUG.
(Though whether anyone will hear you over the sound of tumbleweed rolling past and the deafening calling of crickets is another matter.)

But with a bit of luck, someone who knows will risk it for a biscuit and answer you here ...

Ouchie! lol!

MattKing · May 10, 2017

I doubt anyone is going to complain if you are using the paper to make salt prints.
If you are trying to make inkjet prints that are intended to mimic the look of salt prints, banishment is in order!

Mainecoonmaniac · May 10, 2017

Don't get silver nitrate on your fingers. Don't use rapid fix to fix your print. It will bleach your print.

pdeeh · May 10, 2017

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Don't use rapid fix to fix your print. It will bleach your print.

Interesting.
This is advised in all the books and online resources isn't it?
However, I have tried rapid fixer with sepiaprints (where the same recommendation applies) and found no bleaching at all.
So it may be worth testing with a salt print just to see ...

pdeeh · May 10, 2017

MattKing said:
I doubt anyone is going to complain if you are using the paper to make salt prints.
If you are trying to make inkjet prints that are intended to mimic the look of salt prints, banishment is in order!

The question is about the best material for making digital negatives matt.
But let's not jump on a nice man with only 5 posts

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 10, 2017

MattKing said:
I doubt anyone is going to complain if you are using the paper to make salt prints.
If you are trying to make inkjet prints that are intended to mimic the look of salt prints, banishment is in order!

Just making digital negatives from inkjet transparency material for printing in the frame.

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 10, 2017

I know this will be a learning curve of tweaking amounts but any potential problems with my formula below?

SALT MIX 100ML

1G of Gelatine in 100ml of warmed 70 degree distilled water

dissolve and add

2G SODIUM CHLORIDE

mix and leave to settle

SILVER NITRATE MIX 30ML

3G SILVER NITRATE TO 20ML

2G CITRIC ACID TO 10ML dissolve and add to solution above

Mainecoonmaniac · May 10, 2017

pdeeh said:
Interesting.
This is advised in all the books and online resources isn't it?
However, I have tried rapid fixer with sepiaprints (where the same recommendation applies) and found no bleaching at all.
So it may be worth testing with a salt print just to see ...

I'd prefer to use rapid fix. This is what I use for processing film and prints. I got a 5lb jar of sodium thiosulfite just for salt printing. Ammonium thiosulfite (rapid fix) worked too hard and too fast. I might give it a try again. Puzzled now.

NedL · May 10, 2017

I don't have too much to add but I'd encourage you, once you've made a few successful prints, not to immediately settle on just one formula or way of doing things. You can get a range of different results, and the only way to discover which you like best is to try different things and see which you like. Some of the many things you can try:

Try varying the amount of gelatin from none up to about 2%, and especially try it on different papers.
Try varying the amount of citrate, starting with none and very little (< .25% ).
Try varying the amount of exposure in shade or sun ( or if you are using a UV lamp, try putting a paper diffuser over the printing frame for the first part of the exposure ).
If you get to toning, try different combinations and length of toning. See how toning behaves differently depending on the depth of printing and also the total amount of gold. The gold thiocyanate toner also looks different if there is more or less gelatin.

With all of these things, there is no "best". There is only to discover what you like best!

Have fun!

Prof_Pixel · May 10, 2017

JOHN McMURTRIE said:
Just making digital negatives from inkjet transparency material for printing in the frame.

FYI http://glsmyth.com/articles/creating-the-digital-negative.pdf is a very useful source of info. We probably shouldn't discuss the matter further on APUG.

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 11, 2017

Just in case anyone wants to know - I found this which I believe is the best!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0058G3A3U/ref=pe_3187911_189395841_TE_3p_dp_1

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 14, 2017

IT WORKED!!! Thanks for everyones advise!

TheToadMen · May 14, 2017

Looking good! Keep it going.

A tip for seizing. Lay the negative you're gonna print on the paper and mark the 4 corners of the image on the paper with a pencil. This way you know how far you need to seize the paper (+ 1 cm to be sure).

JOHN McMURTRIE · May 14, 2017

TheToadMen said:
Looking good! Keep it going.

A tip for seizing. Lay the negative you're gonna print on the paper and mark the 4 corners of the image on the paper with a pencil. This way you know how far you need to seize the paper (+ 1 cm to be sure).

I think the messy edges add to the charm. I only had Rapid Fixer and the print now dry is more redder and has darkened. What would you recommend for fixing and is a hypo fix stop necessary?

NedL · May 15, 2017

Hi John,

People use the term "hypo" to mean a fixer made from sodium thiosulfate.
Some people do use a "hypo clearing agent" afterwards. I usually use a 3 minute soak in 1% sodium sulfite, and then a long wash.

In my opinion the next thing you should try is some different kinds of paper, or you might try pre-treating your paper with a weak acid, washing and letting it dry again before you make a print. I think you will find that the background will stay whiter. ( you can try: 2% citric acid, or 2% acetic acid - distilled white vinegar, or 2% sulfamic acid ). Soak the paper for about 10 minutes or until no bubbles appear. But it's also true that prints look different on different papers - not just the texture but the color and deepness of the darks will change. It's good to try several so that you get an idea of what is possible. Isn't this a great process!? It's my favorite.

I like your print!

SALT PRINTING - Wish you knew then but do now?

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