Salt Printing Process -Help

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 5, 2016

Hi ,
Attached a sample image (taken from mobile cam):
I'm a first timer and very new to salt/contact printing. I couldn't afford much , so trying it in a home setup.Did some research online and prepared my solutions. Finally settled for 2% Sodium chloride Sea Crystal Salt and 18.6g of Silver Nitrate in 140ml Distilled water. I tried sunlight , results were bad. I used my basic strobes which has 100W bulb , I have two of them. It gives me decent results. There is no Pictorico films available in India. Even if it is made available I might have to pay dollar value which is 68 times the cost , beyond reach to say. So I found peace with OHP polyester sheets.Paper Negatives didn't work for me. These are my unfortunate / fortunate situation.I get a dark/Brown color with the results for 1.5HR exposure.
I used Sodium Thiosulfate 50g , Sodium carbonate 10g , Sodium sulfite 5g per 1000ml solution for fixer.
10g Sodium sulfite per 1000ml as clearing agent.
15g of Potassium Ferrocynade & 15g of Pottassium Bromade per 1000ml as Sepia toning.
15g of Selenate anhydrous per 1000ml for Selenium toning.
It's a test paper that I obtained from local store ,since I don't get any branded stuff .
I got a wet on wet Canson Montval 300gsm paper A3 , saved it for good prints .

Kindly help me with few things :

What could be the proper mixture of silver nitrate ? I might have to finish the existing solution to proceed further.
I used Cooking Sea salt crystals because the Agar Agar veg gelatin didn't work .! Is there any good substitutes ?

NedL · Aug 5, 2016

Welcome to APUG!

I'm not sure what you want to achieve with your question. The result looks good to me, you seem to have a tone range from nearly white to quite dark. I think you are at a good point to experiment with different papers, different amounts/combinations of toning, and perhaps adding a little gelatin to your salt solution ( it changes the look... you might or might not like it! )

Your silver nitrate solution is about 13%, which seems about normal. I've tried as low as 6% and as high as 24%... for me, lower concentrations increased contrast a little and higher concentrations were more "muddy". 10 to 14% is about in the middle and a good range, a compromise between contrast and depth.

I've tried about 10 different kinds of sea salt and each one produced somewhat different results. The colors were all slightly different, and some produce more background "fog" than others. One kind of rather expensive sea salt ( "kala namak" black sea salt ) fogged the paper after coating the silver nitrate, and before I could make the print, no matter how much citric acid I added. Different salts change the color ( w/o toning ) from various yellow-brown colors to more pink/purple/peach. They affect the color after toning too, but for me the differences were less. I have never tried the toners you are using, so I don't know how much changing the salt will change your results with those.

Have fun!

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

Sir ,
Your approval gave a little boost for my confidence .Being newbie I had no clue on where I was heading or to have a benchmark or something.
I was experimenting few salt combinations.
What I understood is less of Sodium Chloride / Table Salt gives better contrast & D-max value.
I tried Sodium Chloride: Sodium Citrate in 1:3 ratio , & my usual 13% Silver Nitrate it kind of fogged a little but gave a good contrast. Found this on www.unblinkingeye.com/Articles/POP/pop.html
Also tried R/O water instead of distilled water. It works fine for the same salt proportions but looks more Sepia even without toning.
I'm going to try new recipe today - 100ml R/O water 1:3 Sodium Chloride: Sodium Citrate & 1g gelatin.
Hoping for good , shall update soon.
found this link from apug forums , I like this recipe Vandyke (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Vandyke/vandyke.html) I don't know If I could afford now. May be in future
Sample Image : Top Left - Bottom Right : 1. Crystal Sea Salt & Sodium Citrate 1:3 + Silver Nitrate 13% 2 . Same combination with RO water 3. Crystal Sea Salt 2% & Silver Nitrate 13 % 4. Same as 3 but lesser Silver Nitrate .
Forgive the image quality taken from mobile cam & reduced the size for upload.
Thank you .

NedL · Aug 7, 2016

Krishnan Srinivasan said:
....
I tried Sodium Chloride: Sodium Citrate in 1:3 ratio , & my usual 13% Silver Nitrate it kind of fogged a little but gave a good contrast.
Also tried R/O water instead of distilled water. It works fine for the same salt proportions but looks more Sepia even without toning.

I have only tried sodium citrate a few times, but that is very similar to what I noticed. Mine fogged a little, and I thought it might work better if my negatives had less contrast. I think it prints a little faster too... and the color is darker. It depends what you like! With your subject, I can imagine it would be nice.. I am always trying to get delicate highlights and a sense of "air" and distance in my landscapes, so I probably will not use sodium citrate again.

Yes... I also use RO water for all the steps in salt printing. It seems to be fine. One time I was amazed to see fog develop during the washing when I used well water.... so I use RO water for everything. I found no advantage to using distilled water.

I think 1g of gelatin is a lot, but again it depends what you like, and it depends on the paper. Some people use even more ( 2 or 3% ).

Do you have any citric acid? I learned this from someone here at APUG:

1 eyedropper bottle of 24% AgNO3
1 eyedropper bottle of 12% citric acid
1 eyedropper bottle of distilled water

Then, if you mix equal number of drops silver nitrate and water, you will end up with 12% silver nitrate and 0% citric acid. Or you can use equal drops of silver and citric acid to get 12% silver and 6% citric acid.

By changing the amount of water / citric acid, you can get any any concentration of citric between 0 and 6. Depending on what paper you use, you might find that the highlights are more clear with 3 or 4% citric. You can vary the amount to see what works best.

Have fun!

Ned

PS. No need for "sir"... we're all friends here!

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

NedL said:
I have only tried sodium citrate a few times, but that is very similar to what I noticed. Mine fogged a little, and I thought it might work better if my negatives had less contrast. I think it prints a little faster too... and the color is darker. It depends what you like! With your subject, I can imagine it would be nice.. I am always trying to get delicate highlights and a sense of "air" and distance in my landscapes, so I probably will not use sodium citrate again.

Yes... I also use RO water for all the steps in salt printing. It seems to be fine. One time I was amazed to see fog develop during the washing when I used well water.... so I use RO water for everything. I found no advantage to using distilled water.

I think 1g of gelatin is a lot, but again it depends what you like, and it depends on the paper. Some people use even more ( 2 or 3% ).

Do you have any citric acid? I learned this from someone here at APUG:

1 eyedropper bottle of 24% AgNO3
1 eyedropper bottle of 12% citric acid
1 eyedropper bottle of distilled water

Then, if you mix equal number of drops silver nitrate and water, you will end up with 12% silver nitrate and 0% citric acid. Or you can use equal drops of silver and citric acid to get 12% silver and 6% citric acid.

By changing the amount of water / citric acid, you can get any any concentration of citric between 0 and 6. Depending on what paper you use, you might find that the highlights are more clear with 3 or 4% citric. You can vary the amount to see what works best.

Have fun!

Ned

PS. No need for "sir"... we're all friends here!

Hi NedL ,
Attached the image of today's trial .
Though I heated and mixed the gelatin with other salts properly for about half hour, it kind of fogged the image.
Darker portion are evident of sodium chloride and little light brown shade are evidence of sodium citrate.
But I got better D-max here. Looks like RO water isn't bad after all.
I think I'm going to omit gelatin from my process here after.
With my budget getting tighter, I kind of took advice in other forums on pigment printing. I liked the control over color in that.!
Because I couldn't achieve the neutral black tone with Silver Salt Prints ! It doesn't mean I'm quitting it , just a pause for few prints !
This Pigment prints seems to give that desired color but with a oil paint. !
I chose Silver Salt Print for it's versatility , Ansel Adams & many great artist did that. Forget the photographs , atleast I should get that tone right ..!
This is what leaves me hanging in search of other options.
Hoping for good

dwross · Aug 7, 2016

It is possible you are confusing processes. If so, it makes it harder to seek information. What you attempting is not "silver gelatin." I think you're going for basic "salted paper" printing. There is a thread going on the process right now. I haven't read it, but knowing APUGers, I suspect it is chock full of great information.

Ansel Adams is best known for his silver gelatin prints. He was an early advocate for the detail they can deliver. There is a silver gelatin forum here and you might love participating there. Whatever process you land on, I sure you'll have great fun. Your first results are very impressive and encouraging. Welcome to APUG.

NedL · Aug 7, 2016

Diane (dwross) is right, what we are discussing here is "salted paper" printing, often called "salt print".

If we ask the moderators to change the title of this thread, you might get more responses than just from me.

pentaxuser · Aug 7, 2016

Krishnan Srinivasan said:
Hi ,
I tried sunlight , results were bad. I used my basic strobes which has 100W bulb , I have two of them. It gives me decent results.

This is really just curiosity on my part and unfortunately is a question rather than any kind of answer for you but in the quote above it seems that 2 x 100W strobes work much better than a long time under intense Indian sunshine. This really surprises me. I had always thought that the wattage of an intense sun is many times greater than 2 x 100W strobes. Can anyone offer an explanation?

Thanks

pdeeh · Aug 7, 2016

it rather depends what the op meant by "bad results".

salt prints can benefit in terms of contrast from less intense sun exposure so being in India might not be an advantage.

I've seen it recommended to use skylight rather than sunlight exposure for salts - facing north.

without knowing a great deal more about how the op is going about his process it's hard to say much more. salts are very variable and a lot will depend on local conditions, paper, chemical purity, even the pH of the wash water!

but a nice salt print is a lovely thing

pentaxuser · Aug 7, 2016

Thanks for the info pdeeh. I hadn't thought "about more being less". Sounds as if Laycock Abbey might be at the better latitude after all

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Aug 7, 2016

I am curious as to why you are using sea salt. This is an impure form of sodium chloride which has other chemicals in it. If you are experiencing difficulties I would suggest using Kosher or pickling salt which are pure sodium chloride. It is always best to limit the umber of possible problems.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 7, 2016

Thread title updated.

NedL · Aug 7, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
I am curious as to why you are using sea salt. This is an impure form of sodium chloride which has other chemicals in it. If you are experiencing difficulties I would suggest using Kosher or pickling salt which are pure sodium chloride. It is always best to limit the umber of possible problems.

This is a good point. I enjoy trying different salts to see what happens, and so far I've only found one kind of sea salt that I use regularly ( and it needs to be filtered twice to remove some iron-based color ).

I've tried Morton's salt ( a common brand in the US, iodized ), two kinds of kosher salt ( one with added ferrocyanide, the other "all natural with no anti-caking agents" ) and one kind of pickling salt. Of those, it sounds boring, but my favorite was the common Morton's. I think it's interesting that the results are slightly different with each kind, and no two are the same. The sea salts vary wildly, but the table and pickling salts are only slightly different.

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

dwross said:
It is possible you are confusing processes. If so, it makes it harder to seek information. What you attempting is not "silver gelatin." I think you're going for basic "salted paper" printing. There is a thread going on the process right now. I haven't read it, but knowing APUGers, I suspect it is chock full of great information.

Ansel Adams is best known for his silver gelatin prints. He was an early advocate for the detail they can deliver. There is a silver gelatin forum here and you might love participating there. Whatever process you land on, I sure you'll have great fun. Your first results are very impressive and encouraging. Welcome to APUG.

Yes sir ,
I got confused on seeing the results. I pressumed all silver salt / Silver Gelatin will give neutral black tone. I couldn't match the tone and found no close references. Sorry for the inconvenience on topic title. I did try silver gelatin process, my emulsion ( Potassium Bromide + Gelatin separately and Silver Nitrate separately ) concentration became light & while washing all those little color formed got washed away . Hence I switched to Salt printing . Became inconclusive . Only after coming to these forums I learnt that the results are fine and could vary depending on lot of conditions .! I'm happy now with the help that I'm getting I will definitely try my best here after

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

David A. Goldfarb said:
Thread title updated.

Thank you Sir
Sorry for the Inconvenience !

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
I am curious as to why you are using sea salt. This is an impure form of sodium chloride which has other chemicals in it. If you are experiencing difficulties I would suggest using Kosher or pickling salt which are pure sodium chloride. It is always best to limit the umber of possible problems.

I first made Gelatin+ Potassium Bromide combo & Silver Nitrate prints ...I saw no results ,I mean literally no image.Then I watched a youtube video https://goo.gl/gXMquq . And went for it ,since it had the black element that I needed. I followed everything that is told in this video minus the gold chloride solution (beyond affordability) . I'll buy a sodium chloride this time for sure. True sir I should try to avoid all known hazels. My first mixtures and solutions are all made out of Distilled water. Which includes the resulted print that I uploaded first , as a option I experimented with RO water in other things since I finished the first round of necessary elements. My Silver Nitrate is purely distilled water solution , only salt solutions and combinations in later stage is made out of RO water.Now that I have understood few things from this post & forums I may not repeat these mistakes. Thank you sir , I'll try the similar salts available here in the store and post the results. Thank you once again & Good day

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

NedL said:
This is a good point. I enjoy trying different salts to see what happens, and so far I've only found one kind of sea salt that I use regularly ( and it needs to be filtered twice to remove some iron-based color ).

I've tried Morton's salt ( a common brand in the US, iodized ), two kinds of kosher salt ( one with added ferrocyanide, the other "all natural with no anti-caking agents" ) and one kind of pickling salt. Of those, it sounds boring, but my favorite was the common Morton's. I think it's interesting that the results are slightly different with each kind, and no two are the same. The sea salts vary wildly, but the table and pickling salts are only slightly different.

Ofcourse NedL watching the image form on the paper is always a pleasure . It gives great hopes to try more.I thoroughly enjoyed making every print. I will try the similar salts that are available here in the store .
Thank you & Have a great day

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

pdeeh said:
it rather depends what the op meant by "bad results".

salt prints can benefit in terms of contrast from less intense sun exposure so being in India might not be an advantage.

I've seen it recommended to use skylight rather than sunlight exposure for salts - facing north.

without knowing a great deal more about how the op is going about his process it's hard to say much more. salts are very variable and a lot will depend on local conditions, paper, chemical purity, even the pH of the wash water!

but a nice salt print is a lovely thing

Thank you Sir !
It helps . I was inconclusive seeing my results on where am I heading since I thought all perfect combinations should give same results. Now I understand how it could vary with a lot of things.
I shall keep trying this process until I achieve desired results.I understood many things from this post , shall avoid the known hazels . Hoping for good. Have a great day sir

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 7, 2016

pentaxuser said:
This is really just curiosity on my part and unfortunately is a question rather than any kind of answer for you but in the quote above it seems that 2 x 100W strobes work much better than a long time under intense Indian sunshine. This really surprises me. I had always thought that the wattage of an intense sun is many times greater than 2 x 100W strobes. Can anyone offer an explanation?

Thanks

Funny right ...!
I was out there in the sun 36 degree celsius for nearly 3.5 hrs for four days straight to make prints and saw clean papers !
My brain went bonkers .!
I saw this link .http://goo.gl/wKDMKL . It talked about using flash lights .
And finally I saw some results
Learnt a lot about don'ts in this forum & post
Hoping for good

Michael W · Aug 8, 2016

In my limited experience the key determining factors for how a salt print looks are the paper and the negative. So that's where I would be looking to try different things to change the result. I've only worked with traditional large format film negatives so can't give any advice on overhead transparency negs.

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 8, 2016

Michael W said:
In my limited experience the key determining factors for how a salt print looks are the paper and the negative. So that's where I would be looking to try different things to change the result. I've only worked with traditional large format film negatives so can't give any advice on overhead transparency negs.

Thank you Sir !

baachitraka · Aug 8, 2016

Drop Sir. Please.

dwross · Aug 8, 2016

I'm reading between the lines and doing a bit of guessing about your exact process, but I still think "silver gelatin" is not what you think it is. I don't suppose it really matters, but clarity is a good thing in a forum such as this . A silver gelatin emulsion is formed when a salt solution and a silver nitrate solution are combined in gelatin. There are a number of variations of the combining method, but regardless, it's the coming together of the halide part of the salt (chloride or bromide, with sometimes a pinch of iodide) and the silver from the silver nitrate while suspended within the gelatin that makes the magic of a silver gelatin emulsion. Keeping them separate, even if gelatin is in one of the solutions, or is used to size the paper, makes it a salt print rather than a silver gelatin print. Back in the day, when this was first discovered, it was revolutionary.

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 8, 2016

Hi all ,
Today's try .!
Part A & Part B was mixed at the time of application .
Part A : Sodium Citrate & Sea Salt 1:3 18 drops , Potassium Dichromate 5% solution 1 drop.
Part B : Citric Acid 5% 6 drops , Silver Nitrate 13% 18 drops
Paper : Titanium White Local Chart Paper.
Application : Applying Part A was easy and smooth.Let the paper dry.During Part B application the paper showed some weird yellow patterns , though the solution seems to have applied all over the paper.
I let it dry.
Exposing : Same Strobes Two in number . 2hr exposure. The weird Yellow pattern slowly vanished during development. Got some better contrast. I believe the citric acid didn't mix well with silver nitrate.
Washing : Water 2min | Sodium thiosulfate 20% solution 5min (My mistake) | water 2min | Sodiium sulfite 10% 2 min | water 2min | Sepia toning 20% ( my recipe) 30 sec | Selenite 15% (my recipe) 30 sec | water 5 min|
I let it dry.
I got better contrast .But the weird portions got washed away. I could see some paper No Fog. I would say my personal best so far.
Sample Image : Forgive the quality , taken from mobile cam & reduced the size to suite the upload.

Krishnan Srinivasan · Aug 8, 2016

dwross said:
I'm reading between the lines and doing a bit of guessing about your exact process, but I still think "silver gelatin" is not what you think it is. I don't suppose it really matters, but clarity is a good thing in a forum such as this . A silver gelatin emulsion is formed when a salt solution and a silver nitrate solution are combined in gelatin. There are a number of variations of the combining method, but regardless, it's the coming together of the halide part of the salt (chloride or bromide, with sometimes a pinch of iodide) and the silver from the silver nitrate while suspended within the gelatin that makes the magic of a silver gelatin emulsion. Keeping them separate, even if gelatin is in one of the solutions, or is used to size the paper, makes it a salt print rather than a silver gelatin print. Back in the day, when this was first discovered, it was revolutionary.

Oh !
I'm sorry then , I didn't know that.
I would definitely want to try that soon.
Thank you sir !

Salt Printing Process -Help

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