Sally Mann

[DREW WILEY]

Yeah, somehow we survived. But by the time of my 10th highschool reunion, less than 50% of my classmates were still alive. And of the ones left, most of their brains were already rotted out. Country kids could be hopelessly naive in the big city, especially when things like LSD were the hot ticket. Now less than 10% of that class are alive. My cousin grew up in Afghanistan in the 40's. She came back to the US alone when she was 7 years old only with an official note, and then clear back to Afghanistan. That involved hundred of miles on travel on camel and jeep just to get to a third-world airport in the first place. Now you wouldn't a girl that age crossing the street alone. They had no doors or locks in Kabul, just blankets draped in the doorways for privacy, because there was almost no crime. Well, we all know what happened to Afghanistan since. In older age she and her husband, who was a PI, were big supporters of a particular political leaning in this
country, and family-values hero they were backing to be the next regional party superstar turned out to be a predatory pedophile and is now in prison. It's a different world. I'm not telling Sally Mann what to do, but I am still shaking my head, "what on earth was she thinking?" Or was she thinking. I don't know. Visually, the prints are stunning. No doubt about that.

 

[Pioneer]

There have been sick degenerates throughout human history. Fetishes have been around for much, much longer than any would believe. Innocent pictures taken of children are not responsible for creating sick degenerates or for feeding their fetishes.

Running down Sally Mann for taking pictures of her kids is a bit like blaming a woman for her rape because of her dress. It is bullshit.

If we spent as much of our time trying to identify and lock up the sickos as we do trying to blame others for supposedly creating them we might make the world a little bit safer.

 

[SuzanneR]

More likely there is an "artiste" culture that cultivates a make-believe world view, and is inevitable on any forum like this one. Seen it my
whole life. Kinda the macho thing: my "art" makes it worth it. Same attitude I seen with toxic chemicals in art media. Lots of those folks are
either dead or miserable prematurely. I'd get the same flack around here by everyone who thinks they are an artiste because they have green
hair and a nose ring. Seen it all, all too often. Mind games.

I fail to understand your logic. Your example of the abduction you saw, was that girl the subject of someone's art? And how exactly does art making cultivate "make-believe" world view. I realize that there are terrible atrocities in the world, and I still make art. Making art doesn't mean I don't see problems in the world, but our world would be so much worse if everyone who was inclined to make something artful decided they shouldn't because it's there might be a criminal down the street.

 

[cliveh]

I can’t help thinking that anyone who photographs their own children half naked and wearing make-up + doing adult activities like smoking is a totally irresponsible and does not have any place in showing these images as photographic art.

 

[removedacct1]

Running down Sally Mann for taking pictures of her kids is a bit like blaming a woman for her rape because of her dress. It is bullshit.

Pretty much, yep.
If someone persists in believing 90% of the population is horrible, sick and malicious, then that's what that person is going to see.

 

[DREW WILEY]

What is simply common sense to the average parent seem to get trampled in certain politically-correct or artsy/fartsy subcultural sets where the more people try to be different, the more they act like lemmings. I've known people who were messed with as kids and basically had their whole lives a mess afterwards, even on the borderline of suicide. The point is not about accusing some photographer of wrong intentions themselves, but of the inherent risk of putting your kids on display in that manner. Not everyone out there interprets things as art per se, or about the nuances of texture and light and mood or whatever. You create a magnet for the wrong types. What do think is happening right now with kids being careless posting their pictures on the internet? There's a certain subset prowling those waters. I had a tenant up in the hills awhile back that had three little girls who caught the rural schoolbus standing in front of a particular shack. Then the county moved a convicted pedophile right into that shack, with nobody in the neighborhood realizing. Are you telling me that just because some prison shrink waved some chicken bones and mint smoke over the dude that he was cured? Or that he wasn't thinking something weird when those little girls were standing out there each morning? That's like playing with matches in a haystack.

 

[removedacct1]

What is simply common sense to the average parent seem to get trampled in certain politically-correct or artsy/fartsy subcultural sets where the more people try to be different, the more they act like lemmings. I've known people who were messed with as kids and basically had their whole lives a mess afterwards, even on the borderline of suicide. The point is not about accusing some photographer of wrong intentions themselves, but of the inherent risk of putting your kids on display in that manner. Not everyone out there interprets things as art per se, or about the nuances of texture and light and mood or whatever. You create a magnet for the wrong types. What do think is happening right now with kids being careless posting their pictures on the internet? There's a certain subset prowling those waters. I had a tenant up in the hills awhile back that had three little girls who caught the rural schoolbus standing in front of a particular shack. Then the county moved a convicted pedophile right into that shack, with nobody in the neighborhood realizing. Are you telling me that just because some prison shrink waved some chicken bones and mint smoke over the dude that he was cured? Or that he wasn't thinking something weird when those little girls were standing out there each morning? That's like playing with matches in a haystack.

Its official: I'm speechless.

 

[blansky]

But by the time of my 10th highschool reunion, less than 50% of my classmates were still alive. ............ Now less than 10% of that class are alive..

JESUS, I went to school in Auschwitz and our numbers weren't that bad.......


See Old-N-Feeble, with a little ingenuity you can inject the Nazis into every thread. Sometimes all it takes is patience.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'm not intimidated by the loosey-goosey artiste mentality at all. Of course, I've known some very famous artists who didn't act or think like
artistes at all. It's a wannabee thing. But like I said, perfectly predictable. The more open-minded people claim they are, the more they all
think and talk alike. Peer pressure, not common sense.

 

[cliveh]

JESUS, I went to school in Auschwitz and our numbers weren't that bad.......

No you didn't and you are not even qualified to mention it.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

JESUS, I went to school in Auschwitz and our numbers weren't that bad.......


See Old-N-Feeble, with a little ingenuity you can inject the Nazis into every thread. Sometimes all it takes is patience.

See, Blansky, someone will always slap ya' upside da' head fo' it.

 

[blansky]

See, Blansky, someone will always slap ya' upside da' head fo' it.

That wasn't someone, that was just Clive.

He's the head of the outrage dept. Silly little bugger, just sits at a desk all day monitoring the airwaves for a reason to slip into his jackboots.

Damn..... did it again.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'm not even legitimately subject to the Artiste Inquisition, since I never did recite the mandatory vows of poverty, unchastity, and civil disobedience. So I can say anything I want. Don't get me wrong - cowboys could be just as bad, acting like high school cliques, with their
own mandatory customs, like smoking Old Golds or home-rolled, even though they knew they were unhealthy the whole time. "Real cowboys" didn't smoke Marlboros, despite the ads. In fact, they even referred to cigarettes as "coffin nails". Some are sure regretting it now, if lung cancer hasn't already taken them. But that was the whole point - doing something macho and risky. But when matter and anti-matter collided back in the 60's, things got pretty rough for awhile.

 

[Lee Rust]

I'm in the middle of reading "Hold Still", and it's already pretty clear that Sally Mann would not be publishing any nude photos of her kids if she had to do it all over again. She grew up in a sheltered and privileged environment and was encouraged to be independent and creative by her laissez-faire, liberal parents. Naturally, Sally instilled those same attitudes in her own three children.

In the late 1980's, the isolation of Sally's Virginia farm home could provide the sense of security that encouraged her kids to run around naked in the summertime. It was only natural that her photos of daily family life would reflect this. The children collaborated in the making of the pictures and were much more concerned about their poses, expressions and costumes than with any inadvertent exposure of their 'private parts'.

If Sally had been a city girl raised on the mean streets of Berkeley or Baltimore, or if she had been a traditional country girl raised entirely in the rural Southern culture, I'm sure she would have had a very different set of life experiences to color her view of the world around her. All those fears, suspicions and prejudices would have been passed on to her children and reflected in her photos of them. If that had been the case, we might not be here discussing Sally's old photo book or her new memoir.

It was only after "Immediate Family" was published that Sally Mann had to learn the hard way about human perversity in general and American puritanism in particular. Let us be thankful that Sally's imaginary hideaway could be sustained long enough for the creation of the irreplaceable photos she took within it, because that innocent and private place can no longer be imagined by Sally or by anybody else.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Well said Lee.

 

[blansky]

I'm in the middle of reading "Hold Still", and it's already pretty clear that Sally Mann would not be publishing any nude photos of her kids if she had to do it all over again. She grew up in a sheltered and privileged environment and was encouraged to be independent and creative by her laissez-faire, liberal parents. Naturally, Sally instilled those same attitudes in her own three children.

In the late 1980's, the isolation of Sally's Virginia farm home could provide the sense of security that encouraged her kids to run around naked in the summertime. It was only natural that her photos of daily family life would reflect this. The children collaborated in the making of the pictures and were much more concerned about their poses, expressions and costumes than with any inadvertent exposure of their 'private parts'.

If Sally had been a city girl raised on the mean streets of Berkeley or Baltimore, or if she had been a traditional country girl raised entirely in the rural Southern culture, I'm sure she would have had a very different set of life experiences to color her view of the world around her. All those fears, suspicions and prejudices would have been passed on to her children and reflected in her photos of them. If that had been the case, we might not be here discussing Sally's old photo book or her new memoir.

It was only after "Immediate Family" was published that Sally Mann had to learn the hard way about human perversity in general and American puritanism in particular. Let us be thankful that Sally's imaginary hideaway could be sustained long enough for the creation of the irreplaceable photos she took within it, because that innocent and private place can no longer be imagined by Sally or by anybody else.

That's the paradox. She and her children have been dealing with this for almost 30 years, and in every interview it comes up. Number one because people are curious, and two, because interviewers always love to drag out sex and death as much as possible in every interview.

So she's probably pretty sick of it, but yet again it's what made her famous to begin with.

 

[DREW WILEY]

And there are copycats, Blansky, probably not with her level of skill by any means, but very anachronistically in terms of time and place with respect to what the real world is like today. The "kiddie park" right down the street is covered with heroin needles, condoms, and from time
to time slashed-up bodies in the mornings. In this allegedly most liberal city in the country, no parent in their right mind would let their own
kids runs around there unwatched even in broad daylight.

 

[cliveh]

I'm in the middle of reading "Hold Still", and it's already pretty clear that Sally Mann would not be publishing any nude photos of her kids if she had to do it all over again. She grew up in a sheltered and privileged environment and was encouraged to be independent and creative by her laissez-faire, liberal parents. Naturally, Sally instilled those same attitudes in her own three children.

In the late 1980's, the isolation of Sally's Virginia farm home could provide the sense of security that encouraged her kids to run around naked in the summertime. It was only natural that her photos of daily family life would reflect this. The children collaborated in the making of the pictures and were much more concerned about their poses, expressions and costumes than with any inadvertent exposure of their 'private parts'.

If Sally had been a city girl raised on the mean streets of Berkeley or Baltimore, or if she had been a traditional country girl raised entirely in the rural Southern culture, I'm sure she would have had a very different set of life experiences to color her view of the world around her. All those fears, suspicions and prejudices would have been passed on to her children and reflected in her photos of them. If that had been the case, we might not be here discussing Sally's old photo book or her new memoir.

It was only after "Immediate Family" was published that Sally Mann had to learn the hard way about human perversity in general and American puritanism in particular. Let us be thankful that Sally's imaginary hideaway could be sustained long enough for the creation of the irreplaceable photos she took within it, because that innocent and private place can no longer be imagined by Sally or by anybody else.

I understand your point, but why photograph some of them wearing jewellery and lipstick? That is not really in keeping with the rustic setting you mention.

 

[blansky]

I understand your point, but why photograph some of them wearing jewellery and lipstick? That is not really in keeping with the rustic setting you mention.

Kids playing dress up on a lazy often bored hot humid summer day? Not sure, just asking.

Is your point she was sexualizing them?

Something I wanted to add here and I've read stuff about the nudity of her kids and the "wildchild" existence they had on their farm and one aspect of it is weather. I'm not positive about her home, but I have been to some parts of the south and eastern US and there are summer days that are so hot and humid and sticky, that EVERYONE would just as soon take all their clothes off. There is not that same feeling in dryer climates necessarily. And especially if you have little kids, a remote lifestyle, a swimming hole and liberal parents that don't have any issues with nudity, hanging out naked is no big deal. And I guess from her point of view, photographing them wasn't either.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Think I'll drop out at this point, having stirred things up enough. I'll just say I thoroughly enjoyed the mainly articulate Rose interview and the imagery shown, including the discussion of its controversial background, consider Mann a remarkable real-deal photographer, and am glad her kids did themselves grow up safe and sound.

 

[cliveh]

Kids playing dress up on a lazy often bored hot humid summer day? Not sure, just asking.

Is your point she was sexualizing them?

Well Blansky, you are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject. What do you think?

 

[warden]

I'm in the middle of reading "Hold Still", and it's already pretty clear that Sally Mann would not be publishing any nude photos of her kids if she had to do it all over again.

When you get a little further you'll read that she would definitely do it all over again. That whole affair was difficult for the family and for her but she'd do it again.

 

[blansky]

Well Blansky, you are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject. What do you think?

I don't have an opinion either way, because I've never met her. And don't really know that much about her except what I've read.

But I love the pictures, don't angst over child nudity or any nudity for that matter, and sort of doubt that she was exploiting them. I think little naked human beings are cute, charming, represent a freedom, lack of shame and an innocent time in life. There will be plenty of years ahead that will kick that out of them.

As for people exploiting the pictures, as in pornographers. That's a different issue, that I don't hang on the photographer. But as long as children aren't personally exploited I have no issue.

 

[cliveh]

I don't have an opinion either way, because I've never met her. And don't really know that much about her except what I've read.

But I love the pictures, don't angst over child nudity or any nudity for that matter, and sort of doubt that she was exploiting them. I think little naked human beings are cute, charming, represent a freedom, lack of shame and an innocent time in life. There will be plenty of years ahead that will kick that out of them.

As for people exploiting the pictures, as in pornographers. That's a different issue, that I don't hang on the photographer. But as long as children aren't personally exploited I have no issue.

Why do you need to meet her? Or know about her? Look at the images.

 

[bdial]

I am midway through Hold Still as well, and it's a good read.
I think she talked about the cigarette photo in an interview on Fresh Air, it's candy, and her daughter was play acting, like lots of us did, but our parents didn't happen to record the occasion then put the photos in a book.
It's a powerful and thought-provoking image, which is what makes it great.