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summicron1

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you guys looking at how many units per day Leica sells are forgetting something -- Leica has never sold a lot of cameras. It's cameras are numbered in sequence beginning in 1925. By 1960 it had made/sold 1,000,000 cameras because that is when the M3 with the serial number 1,000,000 rolled off the line.

Simple math tells us that over that long period, when Leica was supposedly in its heyday, unlike the trying times many feel it faces now, it sold a whopping 78 cameras a day, including Sundays.

Meanwhile, companies like Minolta sold a million a year.

Leicas have always had snob appeal, too, because they were always expensive -- the $350 or so my M3 cost when it was new in 1956 was equal to nearly $4,000 today, a month's wages, which is why my father bought a Kodak.
 

250swb

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In other words, not all people with money use that money for the misguided purpose of enhancing an ephemeral social status. - David Lyga

Well Leica have always been a 'premium' brand, so on that basis we have to assume all those photojournalists working in war zones like Vietnam were more interested in social status than covering the story in the best possible way? Absurd I know, but you said it, you can't suddenly take a camera type that has always cost more than a Nikon and suggest it is only used as a misguided form of one upmanship. Let's throw Hasselblad into the mix while we are talking about social climbing, those astronauts went to great lengths to go up in the world, they could have used a cheaper camera.

Let's also look at a few more social climbers, Garry Winogrand, Lee Freidlander, Robert Frank, Joel Meyerowitz, who all pathetically used a Leica because it brought them status. The M type Leica is one of the few types of camera always found wherever the world news was happening, one of the few types of cameras at the centre of world media in documentary work, one of the few types of camera at the centre of the 'arts' and the way photography was pushed forward into the Guggenheim etc. And it is still used in each of those areas nowadays. Today there will still be a photojournalist using a camera that is essentially derived from the original 1953 Leica M3. And they are bought for status you say?

If people wanted status from a camera they could pay much less. If I go out with my MP I would guess that in the last decade I might have been asked once or twice 'what sort of camera is it', and once with my M9 (which looks similar) somebody even asked if I could still buy film for it. If I go out to an event with a DSLR I get numerous questions about what lens am I using, or is this body that much better than the last. So I'll tell you what 'buying status' is in photographic terms, it is the need to be seen with a long telephoto lens on the latest Canon or Nikon, because nobody knows what a Leica is. A one day old MP is an old camera to 99.9% of the world. The only reason to buy one for the majority of photographers is that it still does its required job better than the alternatives. Much of the work it became iconic for is still there, documentary hasn't changed much in output, the arts haven't changed much in direction, publishing may now be niche but content suitable for a Leica is still extant.

Perhaps the temptation to think of an M type Leica as a status symbol is derived from the quick turnover of modern cameras. Look only at everything inside the bubble of what is available right now and an MP is anachronistic. But unlike the vast majority of modern camera's you can't separate it from its lineage of nearly 60 years. It has always been doing the same types of job, and it has remained at the same relative price point, those things have never changed. Numbers may have diminished, but it isn't realistic to think that it is social status driving more sales than actual interest photography. There are a lot of photographers who over the years have made sacrifices and gone without other things to buy a Leica. Which I think is more a commitment to their belief in their photography than seeing what they might 'get away with' cheaper.


Steve
 

Dali

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There are a lot of photographers who over the years have made sacrifices and gone without other things to buy a Leica. Which I think is more a commitment to their belief in their photography than seeing what they might 'get away with' cheaper.


Steve

And there is a much greater number of photographer who never felt the need to buy a Leica. A Leica rangefinder might be a good tool but most of the cameras in the last 50 years are IMO much more capable. No, a Leica does not make you a better photographer and I highly doubt I could make any difference in any picture (remember, the photographer does the picture not the camera). If it were true, EVERY professional photographer would use a Leica instead of a Nikon, Pentax, Canon, Contax (you name it). It is so obvious I don't understand why it has to be stated again and again and again.
 
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David Lyga

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OK, truce!

Leica was, and remains, among the best built cameras in the business. One cannot get away with denying that fact. That is why premier brands such as Hasselblad went to the moon and why Leica (with with its quiet shutter) went to war zones. That, 250swb, confirms that these cameras are not always SOLELY for snobs as I might have inferred. But, given the amazing prices today, I think that in MOST circumstances they simply are NOT NEEDED for optimal photos. That is all I had intended to Infer and I think that most reading this post will concur. - David Lyga
 

AndreasT

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As far as I am concerned the Leica is an outdated camera.
However it would always be my personal choice. When people ask my advice which camera to buy, I will all tell them buy the one you like the most. For me the Leica is simply the sexiest camera out there, if M or R. I own thr R8 and use a borrowed M3 which I have been using the last 3 years.
The camera sure doesn`t make you really a better photographer, but if you enjoy working with a certain tool I do believe you can become a better photographer in an esoterical kind of way.
It is funny how this discussion comes up over and over again.
Everybody should use what they like not what others like.
 

AndreasT

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I wouldn't really agree with you David about the quality about the cameras. The lenses yes anyday, but the cameras. The stories I have heard and read about Leica camera problems, and going away from the M to the R, the R8 had lots of problems.
 
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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Laugh if you wish: (hypothetically) I 'have' USD 10,000 to spend frivolously. I buy (1) Leica MP with 50mm lens or (2) 500 Minolta SRTs at a camera show for USD 20 each.

I would laugh, also, all the way to the bank.

And AndreasT: maybe you are correct about the infallibility of the Leica body not being so. Besides, they, also, can drop to the pavement and become instant paperweights. - David Lyga
 
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Laugh if you wish: (hypothetically) I 'have' USD 10,000 to spend frivolously. I buy (1) Leica MP with 50mm lens or (2) 500 Minolta SRTs at a camera show for USD 20 each.

I would laugh, also, all the way to the bank.

And AndreasT: maybe you are correct about the infallibility of the Leica body not being so. Besides, they, also, can drop to the pavement and become instant paperweights. - David Lyga

Yes. You can buy this:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366120684.074271.jpg

Or this:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366120705.041986.jpg

Both will get you to the corner market. With carelessness both wrap themselves around a tree quite well.
 

Dali

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It is funny how this discussion comes up over and over again.
Everybody should use what they like not what others like.

Yes, the funny side is that every Leica talk ends up with some irrational arguments (great photographers used it bla-bla, best craftmanship bla-bla, etc...) from the picture standpoint. It is like Leica owners want to be convinced they did a good choice and need for that a kind of social recongnition from the photo community. Sorry but to me, photography is much bigger than that.
 

Dinesh

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I bought a Leica because I wanted people to say "Is that a Leica?". Further, I plan on buying another sports car and dumping my spouse (and mother of my 2 children) for a 20's something trophy wife!

That's how I roll!
 

Chan Tran

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I have never owned or used a Leica and yet I do believe Leica lenses are very sharp. However, most of the photographs I have seen taken with a Leica including those of famous photographers are not very sharp. Oh yes they are good photographs.
 

Trask

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I have two Leicas, an M3 and an M2, and OK a LTM Leica III, and I bought them because they are quiet and permit interchangeable lenses. They're not the only cameras that fit that list of criteria (I've also got Contax Canon and Nikon RF cameras), but I feel that they offer a degree of repairability and reliability that other marques cannot match. For example, while I do like and use a Minolta CLE too, it has a shorter RF base and I'm always aware that it's an electronic camera that can develop hard-to-fix glitches as parts age. So all in all, I think the Leicas could be said to present the best available combination of features for an RF camera (which, to my aging eyes, are now simply easier to focus than my SLRs). The alleged cachet etc, well, I've never had anyone remark on my camera when I'm carrying it, so that's hardly an attribute that would cause me to buy them.

David -- when my wife and I were in London in 1979, she too went to Vidal Sassoon for a haircut, came out with an Afro-style cut that resembled that worn by Angela Davis -- and 34 years later I'm still hearing about it!
 
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David Lyga

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Dinesh, you are funny while being mildly arrogant.

Dali: I like your counter-argument, especially the 'bla-bla-bla' part.

And Trask: (I'll bet that your wife is not even black.) It must have been the era or something. Actually, the late 70s were a very strange time, with Pope John I lasting but three weeks (!) after he disclosed that he was investigating the Institute for Religious Works (Vatican Bank) and NYC becoming almost bankrupt. There was, indeed, a strange transistion between Jimmy Carter (my favorite President of all times) and the ascension of both Thatcher and Reagan (my second worst President after 'W' Bush).

Yes, somehow people were more naive then and perhaps the world was getting ready to embrace the digital age and its 'virtual life' social media. I do not know, but I tried to stay rooted to the ground in my thinking and that meant even occasionally disagreeing with the aging hippies, even though, politically, I embraced them during the Vietnam Era. - David Lyga
 
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MattKing

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A Leica M7 is a fine camera, and an extravagance.

A gold Leica M7 is a fine camera, and a ridiculous extravagance, and a status symbol.

An unused Leica M7 is a tragedy.

I wouldn't pay the purchase price for a Leica M7, but I don't object to anyone who does, and uses the camera to make photographs.
 

E. von Hoegh

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I bought a Leica because I wanted people to say "Is that a Leica?". Further, I plan on buying another sports car and dumping my spouse (and mother of my 2 children) for a 20's something trophy wife!

That's how I roll!

You should get two Leicas. That way, you can say "my other camera is a Leica too".

But if you really want to impress people, get a Linhof. It has an enamel crest!:wink:
 

mhcfires

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I bought an M2 about five years ago. I bought it because I have always wanted one and I could finally afford one. I love it. I shoot it because it is fun to use. I like the way it handles, I love the fact that it is pure simplicity. I have other cameras, but I prefer this one. I do get an occasional rude comment about film being out of style, but I really don't care what others think. I also have a Nikon D700, but I bought it for my girlfriend to use, she doesn't like my old film cameras.
 
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I do get an occasional rude comment about film being out of style, but I really don't care what others think.

Really? I've never gotten that kind of comment. Usually I get "Cool! A film camera!" Or "Hey look at that! A REAL camera!"
 

Dinesh

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Really? I've never gotten that kind of comment. Usually I get "Cool! A film camera!" Or "Hey look at that! A REAL camera!"

I usually hear "wow a Leica, you must be a very talented and important person" to which I respond "yes, yes I am!"
 

E. von Hoegh

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I usually hear "wow a Leica, you must be a very talented and important person" to which I respond "yes, yes I am!"

You'd be more talented, and more important if you had a Linhof. Like me.:smile:

Plus, you'd be able to say "yes, well, my other camera is a Leica".
 

benjiboy

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A Leica M7 is a fine camera, and an extravagance.

A gold Leica M7 is a fine camera, and a ridiculous extravagance, and a status symbol.

An unused Leica M7 is a tragedy.

I wouldn't pay the purchase price for a Leica M7, but I don't object to anyone who does, and uses the camera to make photographs.
I hate gold cameras, they are bling for the tasteless, no matter how wealthy.
 
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