Sad Fuji News/Happy Voigtländer News -GF670 in Japan only -Bessa III elsewhere!

Barry S · Feb 3, 2009

If the street price is close to $2400, they're going after the rich dilettante market. I doubt they'll sell many in this economy. Is there any point in a "Voigtländer" version with a faux Heliar? There's a lot of fantastic choices out there in the used market for beautiful mint medium format cameras and lenses. $2400 goes a long way these days and none of the film using photographers I know would even consider buying a new camera unless it was unique and a very good value.

sanking · Feb 3, 2009

Not sure how you figure they are going after the rich dilettante market. As JD notes, price at $2400 is less than new Mamiya 7II + 80mm lens.

Also, I have seen a lot of professional photographers carrying around a folding 6X7 Plaubel Makina. Check out ebay for the going price of *used* Plaubel Makina cameras. Hard to find one in EX+ condition for less than $2k.

Sandy King

Barry S said:
If the street price is close to $2400, they're going after the rich dilettante market. I doubt they'll sell many in this economy. Is there any point in a "Voigtländer" version with a faux Heliar? There's a lot of fantastic choices out there in the used market for beautiful mint medium format cameras and lenses. $2400 goes a long way these days and none of the film using photographers I know would even consider buying a new camera unless it was unique and a very good value.

Barry S · Feb 3, 2009

Sandy-- The question is how many new Mamiya 7II's are being sold these days? Someone on the LF forum recently posted a near mint Mamiya II system with camera, 43mm (with finder), 80mm and 150mm lenses, *and* a scanner for $2900. Hasselblad still sells new V system cameras, but most photographers are happy enough to buy a top condition used one for one quarter of the price--maybe less. I can point to all sorts of analog gear still being sold new at prices that are many times over the used market. Most of it sits on the shelf collecting dust until the next occasional sale.

The Plaubel Makina is uncommon and has a bit of a cult/collector following. Maybe a few of those photographers desire (and can afford the GF670), but I think the market is going to be very small.

sanking · Feb 3, 2009

I know. He is a good friend of mine, but the price he offers is a super good deal and much below the going rate on ebay. Just check it out.

Still, as I said, the folding 6X7cm camera is a very special and unique piece of equipment that offers, IMO, exactly what a lot of photographers want. No way you can compare the folding Fuji to any MF SLR. This is apples and bananas comparison. The folding 6X7cm Fuji is unique, in the same way that the Plaubel Makina is unique, and chances are great that it will have the same kind of appeal.

Again, at $2k I think Fuji will sell a lot of these cameras.

Sandy King

Barry S said:
Sandy-- The question is how many new Mamiya 7II's are being sold these days? Someone on the LF forum recently posted a near mint Mamiya II system with camera, 43mm (with finder), 80mm and 150mm lenses, *and* a scanner for $2900. Hasselblad still sells new V system cameras, but most photographers are happy enough to buy a top condition used one for one quarter of the price--maybe less. I can point to all sorts of analog gear still being sold new at prices that are many times over the used market. Most of it sits on the shelf collecting dust until the next occasional sale.

The Plaubel Makina is uncommon and has a bit of a cult/collector following. Maybe a few of those photographers desire (and can afford the GF670), but I think the market is going to be very small.

jd callow · Feb 3, 2009

Under different economic conditions a street price of 1999.95 night be just about right. I fear that it won't sell well under today's economy (and I don't think the 7II is going to be flying out the door either). I hope I'm wrong or that Fuji can hang on for the eventual economic up turn. I am also fearful for the entire trad photo industry. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Oren Grad · Feb 3, 2009

In the United States, MAC has recently raised the price of the 7II Pro Value Pack to $3700, so the GF670 will certainly be a lot cheaper than that.

But the production figure stated in the Fuji press release - 5000 units - is astounding. Even if that includes the Voigtlander-labeled bodies intended for export, it's still larger than the entire production of medium format cameras of all brands and models in Japan in 2006, the last year for which CIPA bothered to break out MF as a separate category.

Leaving aside toys like the Holga and low-end items like the Chinese TLRs, at this point sales of new medium format cameras for film use, all makes and models combined, are vanishingly small.

Chazzy · Feb 3, 2009

Another thought. My skepticism about sales at the intended price might well be overcome if it turns out that the lens is absolutely outstanding--something Fuji is quite capable of. I think we are all going to have some fun reading the first user reports about their experiences with the camera and the usual test results.

Konical · Feb 3, 2009

Good Evening,

I agree with the post immediately above. I'm at least waiting until I see some test reports. A $2000 price would definitely be off-putting, but seeing a few very positive evaluations might make me consider the camera. At $1000-$1500, I'd find it a lot more appealing.

Konical

sanking · Feb 3, 2009

I could be way off base but I think the Fuji 6X7 folder will sell very well with a price around $2K. Anyone who thought this camera could sell for less than $1K USD must have been smoking the grass pipe, so let's be realistic about the price. $2K is not a lot of money for a high quality film camera. And, this is a very small niche market. Did I read somewhere that only 5,000 of these units are being produced?

Basically, my thoughts are that if there is good market for Plaubel Makina 6X7 folders on ebay, which have a big history of problems, at around $2K, the production run of the Fuji 6X7 folder will be gobbled up.

Sandy King

jd callow said:
Under different economic conditions a street price of 1999.95 night be just about right. I fear that it won't sell well under today's economy (and I don't think the 7II is going to be flying out the door either). I hope I'm wrong or that Fuji can hang on for the eventual economic up turn. I am also fearful for the entire trad photo industry. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

firecracker · Feb 4, 2009

sanking said:
Did I read somewhere that only 5,000 of these units are being produced?

You may have. Fuji's website in Japan says so. Considering how many rich folks out there who have received big bonuses while their companies are going down in this global economic crisis, well, there's a market for those cameras!

StevenJohn · Feb 4, 2009

$2000 seems about right when you compare the prices of a new DSLR. $2000 only seems a bit high when compared to a 30 year old Hasselblad you recently bought.

pellicle · Feb 4, 2009

Barry

Barry S said:
The question is how many new Mamiya 7II's are being sold these days? Someone on the LF forum recently posted a near mint Mamiya II system with camera, 43mm (with finder), 80mm and 150mm lenses, *and* a scanner for $2900. Hasselblad still sells new V system cameras, but most photographers are happy enough to buy a top condition used one for one quarter of the price--maybe less

actually I think the question is more like how many cameras such as 1Ds III's are sold. Back when the Hasselblad 501 was a 'cheap entry' into that (and professional wedding photographers bought them) they must have been (in todays dollars) much more money. Even a GW Fuji would represent much more price in the value of money at the time. I recall balking at the price of a Pentax 645 system back in 1980 (and sticking with 35mm).

granted we can get these cameras old now, but used market is nothing like the new market. If you were a manufacturer of anything or knew someone who was perhaps you'd see that to bring to market such a camera is difficult. Heck, I just paid US$200 for a rotating tripod mount (and bits).

As much as I wish otherwise it simply reflects that I'm poor and can't afford these toys.

but if I could afford one ... ;-)

Barry S · Feb 4, 2009

I'm not discounting the effort and expense to bring a new camera to the market. I am doubting the ability and desire of most medium format film photographers to buy a $2400 dollar folder with an ocean of inexpensive top quality used medium format equipment available. Let's do a little poll and see how many ape huggers are actually going to buy at the announced price point--right now, in this economy. This is film central, so I think we can get some idea of this camera's popularity. I'd love to see it succeed, but it's going to have a very small niche.

pellicle · Feb 4, 2009

Hi

Barry S said:
I'm not discounting the effort and expense to bring a new camera to the market. I am doubting the ability and desire of most medium format film photographers to buy a $2400 dollar folder with an ocean of inexpensive top quality used medium format equipment available.

but that's the point ... you're comparing used to new. Its a different ball game. My point was that used market is not really comparable. Used cars are available (often at great savings) but I don't see many companies or government agencies or even successful private businesses "investing" in a used car for their operations.

Also, I don't think there is much on the market new which cost much less than that. A quick tour of B&H shows me that a Mamiya 7 with a lens is $3699, and that a Rollei TLR is $6699 (when I could get a C330 for 10% of that).

anyway, you seem to be agitated by what I wrote before (which I don't understand) so I'm sorry if you're taking my post as something personal.

Barry S · Feb 4, 2009

Hi Pellicle-- Just trying to explain my point--not sure why you think this is personal. At a certain point, used goods outcompete new goods. With most film cameras, we're already way past that point. How many new Rollei TLRs and Mamiya 7II's are sold these days? The film camera market has mostly moved to used equipment. The automotive analogy may not be the most favorable comparison these days with unsold cars continuing to pile up in the current economy. The GF670 is also a luxury item--and they suffer in a bad economy. From the poll I posted, a lot of photographers like the camera, but are hesitant over the (estimated) price. I'm sure the marketers at Fuji are figuring their next move. I'd just prefer the camera was intended for the hard core film user willing to spend a reasonable amount.

pellicle · Feb 5, 2009

Hi Barry

Barry S said:
Hi Pellicle-- Just trying to explain my point--not sure why you think this is personal.

perhaps because of the terse nature of your post, and this sentence:

Let's do a little poll and see how many ape huggers are actually going to buy at the announced price point--right now, in this economy.

{my underline for identification}

well I only said that it sounded like it might be, text based systems are often difficult to be sure on things like this. So I just wanted to make sure noone was getting over heated ... I'm glad to hear I mis interpreted it.

sanking · Feb 5, 2009

,

I believe Barry was just using "ape hugger" for "apuggers". I did not think his comment was meant to be offensive, if so it would apply equally to Barry since he is an "apugger".

However, I believe the point that some are missing in this discussion is that it makes no sense to compare the Fuji/Voigtlander to used cameras in the MF market. If all I wanted was an inexpensive MF camera there are plenty of those around. But there is really nothing like the Fuji folder in the used market, except the Plaubel Makina 67, which is an old design and one not known for its reliability. It is not even fair to compare this camera to range finder cameras like the Fujis and Mamiya 7 because it is so much more compact. And you certainly cannot compare it to the older folders because the design features are worlds apart.

Is there a market for the camera at a price of over $2k? I really believe there is, but could be proven wrong and only time will tell. First, I don't find the proposed price to be unreasonable compared to other cameras. The price of a GSW670 was close to $2000 ten years ago as best I recall, and it does not even have a meter. The Fuji folder is a much more sophisticated camera so why would anyone be shocked that more than a decade later it would sell for more.

I am certainly interested in one myself and based on initial reviews might purchase one. And I certainly don't include myself in the category of the rich dilettantes that Barry appears to believe are the only persons that will buy the camera.

However, even in Barry's poll I notice that some 15% of the people indicate that they either plan to buy the camera or that they are undecided but are likely to buy it. If 15% of the membership of APUG buys the Fuji/Voigtlander folder it will be a big marketing success.

Sandy King

pellicle said:
Hi Barry

perhaps because of the terse nature of your post, and this sentence:

{my underline for identification}

well I only said that it sounded like it might be, text based systems are often difficult to be sure on things like this. So I just wanted to make sure noone was getting over heated ... I'm glad to hear I mis interpreted it.

keithwms · Feb 5, 2009

I propose to Fuji-san that there is a 10% discount for apuggers.

Barry S · Feb 5, 2009

Oh yes, I am definitely an ape-hugger. Sorry, I thought most people were familiar with that pun. I'm somewhat encouraged by the poll because there's a lot of interest in the camera. Despite the fact that so few have committed to buy, there's a lot of people on the fence. I think if Fuji can drop the street price to below $2000, they may have a decent number of sales. --Barry (who wishes he was a rich dilettante)

firecracker · Feb 5, 2009

keithwms said:
I propose to Fuji-san that there is a 10% discount for apuggers.

And/or some kind of lease/try-out plan would do.

jmendez · Feb 5, 2009

gf670

The megapearl website is taking orders for the camera. $2,469.08, guess I won't be buying it anytime soon.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Feb 7, 2009

That's well over $3,000 Australian too. Let's hope the voigtlander version is a touch more in reach. They mentioned it's limited to 5,000 units for the Fuji...pandering to collectors doesn't help users, it seems.

pellicle · Feb 7, 2009

Fleath said:
They mentioned it's limited to 5,000 units for the Fuji...pandering to collectors doesn't help users, it seems.

sure ... but it keeps their doors open ;-)

but wait about a bit and I'm sure you'll pick up one one Ebay for less ;-)

sanking · Feb 7, 2009

I would be very interested in knowing how much the Voigtlander Bessa II cost when it was first introduced on the market, with original selling price adjusted for USD in 2009.

Sandy King

jd callow · Feb 7, 2009

sanking said:
I would be very interested in knowing how much the Voigtlander Bessa II cost when it was first introduced on the market, with original selling price adjusted for USD in 2009.

Sandy King

I don't doubt that it may have been in the range of this new folder or more. The comparison may not be good in that this camera is a throwback and the original was at the fore.

All in all the price v. value is probably there in this camera. I know that with just a slight turn of the dial (6x6 and a wider lens or 6x9), I'd be very willing to pay ~2k or more for it -- this assumes I'm flush at the time.

My concern is timing and what the market will bear. I hope against hope that it succeeds and that this is the first of many.

Sad Fuji News/Happy Voigtländer News -GF670 in Japan only -Bessa III elsewhere!

Barry S

sanking

Barry S

sanking

jd callow

Moderator

Oren Grad

Chazzy

Konical

sanking

firecracker

StevenJohn

pellicle

Barry S

pellicle

Barry S

pellicle

sanking

keithwms

Barry S

firecracker

jmendez

Alex Bishop-Thorpe

pellicle

sanking

jd callow

Moderator

Sad Fuji News/Happy Voigtländer News -GF670 in Japan only -Bessa III elsewhere!

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