RZ67 Mirror stuck. Won't cock. Seller scammed me.

railwayman3 · May 28, 2016

momus said:
Unfortunately you got shafted by paypal. I would have started w/ an eBay claim first, as they CLAIM that if a camera is listed as used it has to be working properly, dispite what is written in the listing regarding tested or untested.

Yes, paypal and eBay both suck. That's where the market is for a lot of gear though. While I have had some bad experiences w/ eBay sellers, by and large (maybe 3000 to 6 or 7 over the course of 15 years), nearly all of my transactions have gone off in a positive manner, or I have been able to have compromises agreed upon in the case of items not as described. The problems I have had came from sellers w/ perfect feedback, so no guarantees w/ that either. eBay will not always cover shipping monies either, so I won't buy from out of the country unless it's something trivial.

Time to get the camera fixed or sell it as-is for whatever you can get for it (which is what I would do rather than pouring more good money down a rat hole) and move on. Sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time through no fault of your own. I would put in the feedback that I had proof the seller knew of the problem when they listed it. I would also include a link since it's true, but feedback postings won't allow that.

Sound and pragmatic advice, Momus.

Ebay's like buying at any other second-dealer, or a car or garage sale......most people are honest and bargains can often be had, if only because what you need may be exactly what another guy wants rid of ! I've had very few issues in, maybe 5-600 deals over the years, and, IIRC, I have only lost my money on one item which the seller quite clearly know was junk. OTOH, I've been able to acquire several rare collectables which I would never have traced otherwise.

I know there were good grounds for the OP to try dismantling the camera (I would probably have done exactly the same), but the lesson for us all is not to attempt to dismantle or repair any faulty item we've bought....just return it and demand a full refund. Even if the faulty item is brand-new from a store, any attempt at repair is going to legally damage the ground for a possible claim.

If I were the OP I think I'd just sell the camera as-is and try to forget the bad experience.

Old-N-Feeble · May 28, 2016

Wolfeye said:
eBay and Paypal are asshole organizations. You gamble any time you use either one. They automate everything; it's unlikely a real person ever saw your case, and if one did, it was a half-English-literate Indian who couldn't really read it anyway and just looked for the markers like "not tested" and "used".

Leave him negative feedback but DO NOT include any link to a the photo.net post. Be sure you indicate he lied. Something like "I have proof that this seller lied." will be enough. Won't help you, but will damage this moron's future sales.

The 'old' eBay was certainly extremely user unfriendly. It's far better today. You can call for help and receive it from a real person within in your country.

alip_93 · May 28, 2016

On the cocking lever side, everything looks like it is functioning properly except the piece of metal that the cocking lever pushes isn't resetting properly so doesn't get pushed by the cocking lever till about 80% of its rotation. I suspect the problem lies on the opposite side where the mirror mechanism is. Sadly this is the hardest to get to due to the electronics. Wires and ribbon cables are soldered in place so I don't think I can remove the logic board without a soldering iron. It is probably a simple fix if I can get under the electronics. I'm going to get a quote from a couple of camera repair shops here in London but it'll probably cheaper to get a new body and salvage the viewfinder and film back. I did take a risk buying this camera being listed as 'used- function unknown' but I thought paypal would have my back if it was obviously broken as it is. They clearly didn't review any of the evidence I posted and probably sided with the seller purely based on the number of paypal transactions he had made! For those above that are saying I should have just returned it, I couldn't as the lens I bought separately was attached to it and unable to be removed due to the camera being unable to cock. I was quoted £120+VAT just for the lens removal and paypal had just rejected my claim for a refund so I was left with no choice but to get the screwdrivers out!

summicron1 · May 28, 2016

alip_93 said:
On the cocking lever side, everything looks like it is functioning properly except the piece of metal that the cocking lever pushes isn't resetting properly so doesn't get pushed by the cocking lever till about 80% of its rotation. I suspect the problem lies on the opposite side where the mirror mechanism is. Sadly this is the hardest to get to due to the electronics. Wires and ribbon cables are soldered in place so I don't think I can remove the logic board without a soldering iron. It is probably a simple fix if I can get under the electronics. I'm going to get a quote from a couple of camera repair shops here in London but it'll probably cheaper to get a new body and salvage the viewfinder and film back. I did take a risk buying this camera being listed as 'used- function unknown' but I thought paypal would have my back if it was obviously broken as it is. They clearly didn't review any of the evidence I posted and probably sided with the seller purely based on the number of paypal transactions he had made! For those above that are saying I should have just returned it, I couldn't as the lens I bought separately was attached to it and unable to be removed due to the camera being unable to cock. I was quoted £120+VAT just for the lens removal and paypal had just rejected my claim for a refund so I was left with no choice but to get the screwdrivers out!

Some days the good lord looks at you on her computer, smiles, and hits the "smite" button.

Take a walk, find another body, ur good to go.

onre · May 28, 2016

The electronics are a bit different from body to body. Some have flat ribbon cables, some have separate wires going from one place to another On some units you can get the electronic stuff pretty well out of the way just by unscrewing the boards and the battery holder, and using what little play the cables have to move the pieces out of the way. Just be careful.

Gerald C Koch · May 28, 2016

APUGuser19 said:
Sellers can't give negative ratings.

A few years ago they could and some people used it to blackmail buyers. Ebay due to abuse decided to eliminate the feature. However I still refuse to do business with ebay.

John Koehrer · May 28, 2016

Like someone said earlier. Ebay's where you should have started with the "not as described" problem.
Try them now, if PP and Ebay don't talk to each other you may still have a chance.
Beyond that, challenge it through your CC company.

rpavich · May 29, 2016

Wolfeye said:
eBay and Paypal are asshole organizations. You gamble any time you use either one. They automate everything; it's unlikely a real person ever saw your case, and if one did, it was a half-English-literate Indian who couldn't really read it anyway and just looked for the markers like "not tested" and "used".

Completely 100% untrue.

I've had a few things happen to me and have had to call both organizations multiple times over them and each time I've gotten a polite, english speaking person located in the US who helped resolve my issues in a fair, and timely manner. They read everything I'd written to them and were familiar with it, even to the messages the other person and I exchanged.
I've probably called two dozen times in total spanning 5 years and never once got a half-english-literate Indian. (whatever that is.)

rpavich · May 29, 2016

Old-N-Feeble said:
Before it was disassembled... yes, he did have an iron-clad claim.

True.
There MUST be more to this than has been mentioned.

IF there was clear evidence that the seller misrepresented his product, AND the buyer didn't do anything that we aren't aware of, THEN PalPal wouldn't have reacted that way. I know that in cases that I've been involved in it's NEVER BEEN just a "denied" letter...there is a LOT of investigation and communication between the buyer and Ebay or PayPal.

But after seeing the pictures of the parts-swap-meet...that's all academic.

I'd have waited until contacting Ebay, showed them the evidence, asked them how to proceed, and THEN when they approved, paid someone to remove the lens...all above board so that nobody could say that I had a hand it messing it up.

calebarchie · May 29, 2016

APUG is to blame

Andre Noble · May 29, 2016

I cant believe the guy took the camera apart like that! I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st.

paul ron · May 29, 2016

alip_93 said:
On the cocking lever side, everything looks like it is functioning properly except the piece of metal that the cocking lever pushes isn't resetting properly so doesn't get pushed by the cocking lever till about 80% of its rotation. I suspect the problem lies on the opposite side where the mirror mechanism is. Sadly this is the hardest to get to due to the electronics. Wires and ribbon cables are soldered in place so I don't think I can remove the logic board without a soldering iron. It is probably a simple fix if I can get under the electronics. I'm going to get a quote from a couple of camera repair shops here in London but it'll probably cheaper to get a new body and salvage the viewfinder and film back. I did take a risk buying this camera being listed as 'used- function unknown' but I thought paypal would have my back if it was obviously broken as it is. They clearly didn't review any of the evidence I posted and probably sided with the seller purely based on the number of paypal transactions he had made! For those above that are saying I should have just returned it, I couldn't as the lens I bought separately was attached to it and unable to be removed due to the camera being unable to cock. I was quoted £120+VAT just for the lens removal and paypal had just rejected my claim for a refund so I was left with no choice but to get the screwdrivers out!

the problem will be either the mirror latch, but more likely the gear with the sheer pin driven by the cocking levers axel on the nonlever side.

you may have enough room to work if the pc brd has long enough leads which is what im suspecting.

xya · May 29, 2016

rpavich said:
Completely 100% untrue.

I've had a few things happen to me and have had to call both organizations multiple times over them and each time I've gotten a polite, english speaking person located in the US who helped resolve my issues in a fair, and timely manner. They read everything I'd written to them and were familiar with it, even to the messages the other person and I exchanged.
I've probably called two dozen times in total spanning 5 years and never once got a half-english-literate Indian. (whatever that is.)

since you never had them, I suppose, us-americans get a special treat. I had them, my english friends had them as well. they are hell. they don't understand what you say or write. you ALWAYS get standard phrases as an answer until you give up.

StephenT · May 29, 2016

Congratulations to the OP for successfully disassembling the RZ and solving the lens problem. That was a significant victory and a great learning experience as well. That alone may have been worth the price of the RZ.

I would have started the case with eBay first, not PayPal. My experiences with eBay have been quite favorable regarding items received that were not as described. PayPal may be a bit more limited, since PayPal can be used for any purchase, not just eBay ones. Sellers can not give negative feedback anymore, so they cannot hold feedback as ransom.

I hope the eBay dispute is resolved in favor of the buyer, I can't imagine any other outcome given the circumstances.

Do INDEED leave negative feedback, do not miss that window of opportunity.

removed account4 · May 29, 2016

xya said:
since you never had them, I suppose, us-americans get a special treat. I had them, my english friends had them as well. they are hell. they don't understand what you say or write. you ALWAYS get standard phrases as an answer until you give up.

huh,
i've called ebay and paypal on occasion since the 1990s when i opened accounts there. i've had disputes settled or questions at both places, never a problem.
i've spoken with people in call centers inside and outside the use as well, and haven't had the pleasure of canned phrases or difficulty understanding me or them, me.
i think it is very easy for people to make harsh generalizations that things are always this
or never that.
i'm glad ebay has made the changes they have made. no retaliatory negative feedback. guarantee that a seller isn't scamming a buyer, selling broken goods or things that aren't for sale.
and paypal's offering the same piece of mind return policy that any credit card company offers. the problem i see it is that people aren't patient with others, and they jump down the CS representative's throat
when there is a problem, and often times you get back what you give by way of your problem not being solved to your own satisfaction.
i've had more trouble outside the world of ebay than on eBay. with buyers and sellers who try to skirt the system so someone doesn't get the protections that ebay or paypal offer
( send money as "gift" or lie on customs forum for example , or purposefully send a money order that costs $50 to cash and when they offered a MBG upfront when they advertised an item as
works perfectly, like new ... and when it arrived it was all jammed up and the shutter inaccessible (sound familiar ? ) they send you messages full of insults and nastiness, and even call
the repair shop you took it to all sorts of nasty names ). no thanks !
i'd rather buy something on eBay, pay the fees for their service, and if a seller pulls a fast on on me, be able to be patient CALL paypal on the phone, get a refund and CALL eBay and dipsute there as well.
usually if you are patient and nice to the person on the other end of the phone they will be nice back and help you to the best of their abilities.

JW PHOTO · May 29, 2016

Old-N-Feeble said:
I'm nearly certain eBay would have sided with the buyer. They nearly always do. Hoping the best for justice in this case.

eBay might might side with the seller, but I doubt it very much. As for PayPal? PayPal is a buyers friend for sure. I have first hand experience with PayPal as a seller and know for a fact that PayPal will always side with the buyer first. I sold a lens to a fellow on the west coast and the lens was as described or better (I always rate my items very conservative). The buyer has 45 days to try the item and determine if it works properly or was "as described". Exactly 44 days and 13 hours this fellow sends me an eBay message stating that there was white marks inside the lens and the focus was extremely stiff. Neither was true. I was not home or near a PC so knew nothing about the message. About one hour later he messaged me again, but I was still gone. That's when he contacted PayPal and lodged a "not as described complaint" and PayPal took action. They froze my PayPal account right on the spot. This wouldn't have been so bad, but that also means other folks who have made purchases cannot pay via PayPal either. What a mess! I refunded him his money, including all shipping and once he signed off it was over. I got the lens back and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. I then got suspicious and went over the completed auction for the same lens and found he(eBay didn't code the buyers handle like they do now) had recently purchased one "buy it now" at a very cheap price. So, he used my lens, bought another, tried it out and then kept the cheaper one while getting a full refund for mine. Was I upset? No, I was really pissed off, but there was nothing I could do. Now, you might thing I'm a "shifty" seller, but I've got over 1369 transactions and never had a complaint other than that one "you know what". So, while most people complain about sellers be assured there are just as many crooked buyers out there too. PayPal will take this guy to the cleaners and he won't want any part of his account being closed down. Trust me, I know first hand! Oh, that was before the tinker started tinkering of course.

Old-N-Feeble · May 29, 2016

I've been buying and selling on eBay and sending/receiving PayPal payments for years. My combined buyer/seller feedback is over 1200 and is 100 percent. I've seen both companies evolve into what they are today. So I know what I'm talking about too.

The buyer should have stopped abruptly when an issue was found and contacted the seller to attempt resolution of the problem. As soon as the seller declined full reimbursement of shipping both ways plus paying for a technician to have the lens removed the buyer should have opened an "Item Not As Described Case". Follow eBay and PayPal policies and procedures and the buyer nearly always wins. ALL correspondence should be conducted via eBay's internal messaging system. There are several times that agents read the pertinent messages and sided with me, both as a buyer and a seller. But if you don't use their messaging system it's far more complicated for the agents to see what's been written.

Yes, there are seller scammers and buyer scammers. That's the world in which we live, sadly. But why do these myths about eBay and PayPal continue to be parroted?

JW PHOTO · May 29, 2016

Old-N-Feeble said:
I've been buying and selling on eBay and sending/receiving PayPal payments for years. My combined buyer/seller feedback is over 1200 and is 100 percent. I've seen both companies evolve into what they are today. So I know what I'm talking about too.

The buyer should have stopped abruptly when an issue was found and contacted the seller to attempt resolution of the problem. As soon as the seller declined full reimbursement of shipping both ways plus paying for a technician to have the lens removed the buyer should have opened an "Item Not As Described Case". Follow eBay and PayPal policies and procedures and the buyer nearly always wins. ALL correspondence should be conducted via eBay's internal messaging system. There are several times that agents read the pertinent messages and sided with me, both as a buyer and a seller. But if you don't use their messaging system it's far more complicated for the agents to see what's been written.

Yes, there are seller scammers and buyer scammers. That's the world in which we live, sadly. But why do these myths about eBay and PayPal continue to be parroted?

Yup, you have to follow the procedure or you're screwed, blued and tattooed. Contacting the seller is NO.1, but in my case I wasn't there to reply and he was running out of time. 1,369 transactions and never one negative feedback. All 100% so my findings align with yours pretty close, but the edge, as far as PayPal goes, leans in favor of the buyer by my experience. Still, you can get screwed either way if you don't know what you are doing. Like taking an item apart before getting the OK to do so???? I have the most trouble with foreign buyers not understanding the item description. Still, it's a great place to shop no matter how much bitching we do about eBay and I'd be lost without it.

EdSawyer · May 31, 2016

alip, glad to help with the repair guide documents. Hopefully they will let you get it working again. From the look of the cocking issue, it sounds like a mechanical issue with the gear train. One thing you might try is find the Motor Winder for the RZ and see if that allows it to cock. It goes through a different interface, on the bottom of the camera, and might work that way (while the regular wind lever does not.) Just an idea. Or, save it as a parts body and pick up another one. Just a bare RZ body is not too expensive these days, and it's a great camera, the best MF system camera I think.

skorpiius · May 31, 2016

mesaboogie said:
for what it's worth, never buy anything a seller says they cannot test. That's a nice way of saying it's probably broken. Those are the items you better get dirt cheap if you do buy. Not sure what the value is of an RZ, but that's my take on stuff that is sold as untested.

+1
I've seen auctions for items that they can't test, when all the item needs to test is a couple of AA batteries...

JW PHOTO · May 31, 2016

skorpiius said:
+1
I've seen auctions for items that they can't test, when all the item needs to test is a couple of AA batteries...

Yes, when I see that I start asking questions. If I don't get answers I like I consider the item "DEAD". I consider "not tested" the same as "not working"! I won't even bid on a camera if I see the words "not tested" and then check the sellers feed back only to see he sells a lot of camera gear. He obviously knows cameras and he obviously knows it doesn't work! So, he says not tested hoping you'll take a chance. I see this all the time and the first place I go is to the feed back page. I might take a change on a camera if it's a little old lady selling from her home and lists a camera as "My late husbands, but don't know how it works". Again, check the feed back! Also, I always ask if it appears to have been taken apart. Like burred screws, etc. This all saves a lot of hassle. John W

RZ67 Mirror stuck. Won't cock. Seller scammed me.

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