Rumor so far.... Kodak is killing off all B+W paper products.

[jd callow]

If George E. were alive, he'd shoot himself again.

Mr Dover you wouldn't know a guy by the name of Justin Butz? I seem to remember him mentioning your name.

 

[Flotsam]

Mr Dover you wouldn't know a guy by the name of Justin Butz? I seem to remember him mentioning your name.

Perhaps you are thinking of Mr. Spredham. My business partner in the firm of Ben Dover & Spredham.

 

[aldevo]

I just can't believe that within their transition to cash in on the popularity of digital, they can't run a factory to supply and profit even from the admittedly contracted traditional photography market. They already have the machinery, patents, personel, reputation and an existing worldwide distribution network. Granted, their film division will become a small part of the overall company but hey, a buck's a buck.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp???

Merely being profitable has nothing to do with it.

Proftiability to the extent that you can offer adequate return on investment to investors placing their capital at risk has EVERYTHING to do with it.

So Kodak could make $1 on a $55 box of Polymax? Why should investors give a damn if they could get 4% on their money by putting it in the bank?

 

[photobackpacker]

Companies like Kodak are incapable of profitability in niche markets. They do not have the inclination to change their business model from one of mass marketing to one of mass customization. Imagine if Kodak actually sought out ULF customers with the offer to cut film to their size. Imagine if they had the ability profitably run small batches of paper as needed by the fine art community. Imagine if they showed committment to their roots (and customers.)

Kodak is like an Aircraft carrier trying to pull water skiers. They have the power and the speed but heaven help you if you want to go anywhere but straight ahead and don't expect them to circle back if you need them.....

 

[Jennifer]

They have indicated that their future is in "D" market. I can understand they can't stay in business selling to a small market. On the other hand they have made no effort to promote, letting people know that REAL film, non C-41 process was available. As I see it, they don't need us, and WE DON'T need them. Hopefully this and when they AXE film, which sooner the better, will insure companys like Ilford can have a certain future. Ilford's concern is B&W, and they made the statement we WANT to be around. They have good proven products, and QUALITY control. Support those that WANT to support YOU.


Jennifer

 

[Jim Chinn]

From the Azo forum--

Quote:
Posted by: Michael A. Smith Posted at: 10:32:06 AM PT, 6/15/2005

I have an appointment to speak with KOdak at 9:00 A.M. tomorrow. I will let everyone know what transpires. As of this moment I am not worried. There is five years worth of Azo on the master rolls.

Michael


The real question is what will Kodak do with the master rolls of AZO?

 

[mark]

MAS will need to install another walk in freezer. One marked XX and the other marked AZO.

 

[Jorge]

The real question is what will Kodak do with the master rolls of AZO?

LOL....good point! If they are getting out of the paper market and supposedly have about a 6 month inventory I dont see them hanging around for 5 years with Azo. They will most likely call it a loss, destroy the rolls unless someone wants to buy them and deduct them from their taxes.

 

[Jorge]

MAS will need to install another walk in freezer. One marked XX and the other marked AZO.

I think it is going to require more than 1 walk in freezer....

 

[c6h6o3]

As I see it, they don't need us, and WE DON'T need them. Hopefully this and when they AXE film, which sooner the better, will insure companys like Ilford can have a certain future. Ilford's concern is B&W, and they made the statement we WANT to be around. They have good proven products, and QUALITY control. Support those that WANT to support YOU.

Speak for yourself. I, for one, need their products very much. Whether we like the stuff or not, I don't think anyone here would argue that Azo isn't a unique product. There is simply no substitute for it. No paper ever made by Ilford even comes close. And what they're making now is but a pale shadow of the old Galerie graded paper.

While I'm sure that many here would not agree with me (and they have a much better argument about this one than they would the paper), I also feel the same way about 400TMax. For me there is no film manufactured today which can match it. Some can come close, but this ain't either horseshoes or hand grenades. Wherever possible I brook no compromises, so 'almost' just doesn't cut it.

I really couldn't care less who wants to support me or doesn't. I only care what my prints look like. Without Kodak's quality and incredible consistency of quality they will suffer dramatically.

If Kodak does not plan to cut, package and distribute the master rolls they own, I'll begin stockpiling immediately.

 

[Flotsam]

Why is this so hard for people to grasp???
So Kodak could make $1 on a $55 box of Polymax?

If Kodak is making a buck a box I agree, they are too stupid to exist.
Take 'em away Darwin... Book 'em, incompetence One.
Best of luck in the digital shark pool.

 

[Jim Chinn]

My interests in ULF is moving more towards alternative, plt/pld, collodion, kallitype etc. I will have to think long and hard about making a sizable AZO purchase of say 10 boxes of 20x24. I would like to have some on hand that might fit certain subject matter perfectly, but I can go with the flow. If it goes away next year I'll find something just as appealing but with different qualities.

At the recent workshop held by Lee C. in Texas, Les Mclean showed prints on Ilford MGIV warmtone split toned in selenium and gold. They were spectacular in person. That looks like an avenue to explore for contact printing ULF negs.

And like I have said before, i think we are really just scrathing the surface on the possibilities of coating papers and custom emulsions.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm quite pleased with Efke/Classic/Cachet/Maco Expo RF in amidol for enlargements. When there's no more Azo, I'll probably take up pt/pd or albumen, unless one of the smaller manufacturers is making a decent chloride paper, and if they are, maybe they should try to replicate Haloid Industro rather than Azo.

 

[c6h6o3]

Haloid Industro rather than Azo.

Is there any of it around? If they had some it would certainly be easier to duplicate.

 

[michaelsalomon]

its gonna get a whole lot worse before it gets better...

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Aaron Van de Sande bought a cache of Haloid Industro, made a few beautiful prints, and decided he needed to set aside 8x10" for a while and sold it. Maybe if he has a record of the purchaser we could track it down.

 

[photobackpacker]

its gonna get a whole lot worse before it gets better...

Hi Mike:

Yesterday was, for many of us, a gut-wrenching day. The phrase "Denial is not a river in Egypt." took on a new dimension.

After sleeping on it, I have a slightly different take. We will see the hole left by Kodak filled by a new player (or players.) We will have lost a disinterested, unresponsive and inwardly-focused "partner" and will gain one who is in the business because of their love on the medium. One who is willing to listen and will look for ways to be responsive. It may take a while - then again, it may not.

This may be Ilford. Smart money would approach Kodak and buy the paper interests with the goal of scaling it down to profitability. I don't imagine Ilford is in a position to do this - but imagine the strength if they could add AZO and Polymax to their line. My money is on a group of private investors who understand the photo-media process.

Kodak's move does not diminish us. What we do and what we produce just became that much more rare and valuable.

 

[Jim Chinn]

I would not hold out much hope about Kodak selling any of its proprietary formulas or product lines. Once Kodak completely seprates itself from film, film cameras and film become the enemy. Once they are totally digital every film camera sale, every wet print made at home and every roll of film sold regardless of mfg takes away potential revenue. Any company that is concentrating on digital wants to see the total extinction of film and film cameras.

The timing of things such as this announcement are usually tied to upcoming earnings reports (to help cushion fallout from a bad report) or to demonstrate that a new CEO is aggresive in his strategic outlook.

I think one reason we have not read about discontinuing of film is that they need to save that announcement for when they need to pump up the stock price.
Cutting jobs, closing factories and dropping marginal product lines is music to the ears of the institutional investors who probably control most Kodak stock in various mutual funds and large holding companies.

 

[jovo]

I would not hold out much hope about Kodak selling any of its proprietary formulas. Once Kodak completely seprates itself from film, film cameras and film processing becomes the enemy. Once they are totally digital every film camera sale, every wet print made at home and every roll of film regardless of mfg takes away potential revenue. Any company that is concentrating on digital wants to see the total extinction of film and film cameras.
.

I disagree. If (and of course they do) their fomulae have monetary value, they'll absolutely sell them. It would be irresponsible not to. There is a legal compulsion to generate the greatest return to investors as a condition of incorporation as a publically traded company. Besides...since Kodak has determined that the/their future is digital...what difference would the miniscule fine art black and white printing paper market make to them anyhow? Enemy?... Hardly.

(On the other hand, everything I just said makes sense, at least to me. So to assume that logic will rule the corporate mind requires an enormous leap of faith and a large dose of naivete. I could be quite wrong ;-))

 

[Jim Chinn]

(On the other hand, everything I just said makes sense, at least to me. So to assume that logic will rule the corporate mind requires an enormous leap of faith and a large dose of naivete. I could be quite wrong ;-))

I agree that everything you said makes perfect sense. however, logic and common sense are rare commodities in the board rooms of American corproations these days.


I don't recall who it was last nite in the chat room, but they related a story that when Kodak bought GAF, they destroyed the GAF coating line so it could not be re-sold and become competition. So I don't hold out to much hope that Kodak would ever sell facilities, formulas or machines to anyone. The only thing they might do is move film production overseas where wages are cheap and environmental regulations are non-existent and sell some emulsions under a different brand.

As far as digital companies are concerned, they would like everyone who shoots B&W film to buy a digtial camera and convert the files to B&W in photoshop, use their printers, their inks and their inkjet papers.

I suppose there may be a price at which Kodak might sell its formulas. I doubt anyone can pay it. Except for AZO which is unique, no current mfg would buy any Kodak formula. With Kodak gone your market share increases without spending a dime.

If people like Kodak products then buy a freezer and fill it up. I decided about 4 years ago that Kodak had no interest in supporting traditional photography as they had already begun to eliminate papers and films.
Their remaining film and paper are still outstanding. But I switched all my film and paper (with the exception of AZO) away from Kodak a couple of years ago.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Buying Master Rolls of Azo

What an opportunity for J&C to get a product that would probably sell just fine...

I think it is going to require more than 1 walk in freezer....

 

[jjstafford]

I don't recall who it was last nite in the chat room, but they related a story that when Kodak bought GAF, they destroyed the GAF coating line so it could not be re-sold and become competition. So I don't hold out to much hope that Kodak would ever sell facilities, formulas or machines to anyone. The only thing they might do is move film production overseas where wages are cheap and environmental regulations are non-existent and sell some emulsions under a different brand.
[...]

I was under the impression that Kodak made their paper in Brazil. Regardless, if their formula is truly worthwhile, it cannot be kept a secret; corporate espionage thrives as the epitome of capitalism. One only has to change it in the smallest way to reproduce the product.

Kodak's leaving the field makes the smaller, more nimble, private companies stronger. I am confident our needs will be fulfilled.

 

[Joe Symchyshyn]

With the recent paper news...

Anyone want to take a stab at how long traditional b&w film will still be on their books? If they don't see profit in paper, they can't have that much more in the film that needs to be printed...

6 months?
1 year?
2 years?

It's nice to put it out there that they're discontinuing paper but keeping all the rest... The other shoes will drop shortly as this "transition" to digital takes place... Life goes on.

joe

 

[ann]

For what it is worth (about 2 cents) i just talked with my dealer and during the chat we did talk about Kodak and the paper news, they told me that the chemical end of the business has been very good as well as film. Does this mean anything; of course not, just one birdseye comment.

 

[Rlibersky]

Has there been a official announcement yet?